Sunday, November 17, 2019

FRAM: Ten Pounds of Shit in a Five Pound Bag

Where do we begin with FRAM? I'd never heard of the guy until the drama over banning him for a year boiled over this summer, but then, as a non-Wikipedian who is on the global ban list anyway, I don't know all the idiots. He's a Smurf fanboy from Belgium who has hidden his real identity very well, almost a European tarantino.

The Background

FRAM showed up at en.Wikipedia in August of 2005 and was mostly editing Belgian subjects like the Smurfs, bios of Francophone comic authors, and astronomical subjects. According to Eric Barbour's notes, FRAM is from Buggenhout, Belgium, which is a couple of miles north of Brussels and north-west of Brabant, where the "Nijvel gang" ("Brabant killers") went on a murder/property destruction spree from 1982-85. We only mention it here because of the insane black comedy Man Bites Dog (1992); directors Poelvoorde, Bonzel, and Belvaux seemed to be drawing energy from those crimes, which were completely "violence for violence's sake" and deliberately illogical. People seem to think para-politics was involved. But back to FRAM - we know that the "FRA" is the first three letters of his given name and the "M" is his family name, so possibly his actual name is François Morane. If you have a phonebook for Buggenhout, start looking through the "M"s.

By June, 2006 he had become an gnomer/patroller and a voter in Articles for Deletion actions....his Request for Adminship went through in February of 2007. It was here that he began to truly show his colors: he was a prime deletionist, a blocker of Wikipedia critics, and a person hiding in anonymity willing to out anybody on Wikipedia.

                                                     Possible portrait of FRAM, 2019.

The amount of articles FRAM deleted ran into the thousands and he would get Cuddlyable3 blocked in late November of 2011 for "disruptive editing" and alleged sockpuppetry. He also blocked and unblocked Kiefer.Wolfowitz more than once, but then so did a number of people, as seen here. Why were they blocked? Because both were critics of Wikipedia. The name "Fram" is accredited special favor by him - anybody writes an article about a thing with that name gets to watch as FRAM will delete it or kajigger the disambiguation page so that Fridtjof Nansen's ship Fram ("Forward" in Norwegian) is always at the top - even the automobile filter firm is at the bottom.

(post under construction)

Sunday, November 10, 2019

Nine Years Ago Today on the en.Wikipedia IRC Chat.....

What was going on in the en.Wikipedia IRC stream today in 2010. Ironholds, Ottava, BarkingFish and others are present.

Session Start: Wed Nov 10 18:30:18 2010
Session Ident: #wikipedia-en
 03[18:30] * Now talking in #wikipedia-en
 03[18:30] * Topic is 'English Wikipedia: | Status: | Channel guidelines at | For a channel operator, ask in #wikimedia-ops, or say !ops followed by your request | No public logging | Write your personal appeal to our readers: '
 03[18:30] * Set by PeterSymonds!~Peter@wikimedia/PeterSymonds on Sun Nov 07 05:01:54
[18:30] <***> Buffer Playback...
[18:30] <Ironholds> [18:33:37] if one of them is dead he isn't able to serve
[18:30] <Ironholds> [18:33:43] that doesn't mean he has to be replaced, of course
[18:30] <Ironholds> [18:33:50] Section 36(1) just ALLOWS him to be replaced
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:37:50] "Daniel Defoe wrote of Fagg's prodigious bullocks, "I never saw any thing like them"
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:38:25] "As austerity cuts bite in Britain, Matt Prodger reports on the UK councils turning off streetlights in order to save money."
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:38:30] bloody great idea
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:38:50] they said theyre gonna dim some, turn some off periodically, and scrap some
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:39:02] light polution reduction, maybe we'll see the stars in the city :O?!
[18:30] <topaz> [18:39:27] IHNJH,IJLS "prodigious bullocks"
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:40:01] "Fagg's prodigious bullocks"
[18:30] <topaz> [18:40:16] indeed.
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:45:41] jesus CHRIST - [[Nasal Reconstruction, Paramedian Forehead Flap]] - what what what what
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [18:47:34] did i not know abotu Reflinks until now?
 06[18:30] * killiondude [18:48:15] slaps Chaoticfluffy with a ten pound trout.
 06[18:30] * Chaoticfluffy [18:48:29] accepts the well-deserved trouting
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:48:37] << points to amazon for not caving in yet :/
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [18:49:04] there's been a lot of screaminess about that in my twitter timeline today, alyxuk
[18:30] <killiondude> [18:49:21] :/
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [18:49:45] thing is, amazon probably had literally zero involvement in that book being offered. Apparently authors who self-publish can add their books to the kindle wares pretty much on their own
[18:30] <geniice> [18:49:57] alyxuk they did on virgin killer
[18:30] <geniice> [18:50:28] alyxuk however in this case they probably want to avoid the Lolita issue
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:54:53] virgin killer is a slightly different matter
[18:30] <killiondude> [18:55:01] killer pings me
[18:30] <killiondude> [18:55:06] or kill maybe
[18:30] <killiondude> [18:55:08] ugh
[18:30] <alyxuk> [18:55:20] virgin killer is (arguably) CP, whereas a book is.. a... book
 06[18:30] * PeterSymonds [18:55:22] kills killiondude.
[18:30] <killiondude> [18:55:28] D:
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [18:56:54] FT2, poke
[18:30] <FT2> [18:58:13] yup
[18:30] <FT2> [18:58:20] was hoping you'd wander back
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:59:33] Ghosts and clouds.....
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:59:36] and nameless things.
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:59:41] Squint your eyes and hope real hard....
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [18:59:44] maybe sprout wings.
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [18:59:51] ?
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:00:10] ??
 06[18:30] * Chaoticfluffy [19:00:18] eases the beer out of Dragonfly6-7's hand
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:00:25] I don't drink
[18:30] <topaz> [19:01:19]
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:03:05] ah. so just autumn musings, then?
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:06:54]  [[Nasal Reconstruction, Paramedian Forehead Flap]] - someone give me an opinion on this
[18:30] <Ironholds> [19:07:22] Dragonfly6-7: disgusting, but necessary
[18:30] <Ironholds> [19:07:31] otherwise we'd have people with weird noses
[18:30] <Ironholds> [19:07:34] that sort of opinion?
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:07:43] sources look bogus
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:07:46] Do they?
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:07:52] Something seems wrong.
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:07:58] the surgery itself - meh
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:08:03] the *article* is what I'm concerned about
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:08:06] so tempted to prod the article of a non-notable Moldavian with the rationale "molvania doesn't really exist"
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:08:13] ....meh, sources look okay actually
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:08:24] the first one exists, for sure
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:08:33] but the article's a mess. I say speedy delete via [[WP:IAR]] and [[WP:TNT]]
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [19:08:57] And some other three-letter acronyms too.
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:09:08] WP:TNT definitely.
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:09:29] Also nuke the images.
[18:30] <geniice> [19:09:49] pubmed says process is real
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:10:14] TNT?
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:10:16] wow those are quite possibly the creepiest images i've ever seen
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:10:33] I mean, I understand completely his desire to censor the images for the privacy of the patients
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:10:34] but
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:10:52] yeah
[18:30] <topaz> [19:11:00] the process is real, that doesn't mean there needs to be a whole ten-page wikipedia entry on it.
[18:30] <geniice> [19:11:03] Chaoticfluffy have you seen our deformed bay pics
[18:30] <geniice> [19:11:10] baby
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:11:11] he's been doing a lot of work today on medical stuff
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:11:18] some of it is good, some of it is... I don't know what
 06[18:30] * Chaoticfluffy [19:11:30] is fine with graphic pics. It's just something about the black holes added to these that creep me out
[18:30] <topaz> [19:11:34] summarize in two paragraphs, merge into [[rhinoplasty]] or something
[18:30] <oona> [19:11:38] WP:NOTGUIDE though
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:11:49] they're added so *badly*
[18:30] <geniice> [19:11:57] cyclopia try [[cyclopia]]
[18:30] <topaz> [19:12:06] jesus, I hope this isn't intended as a manual.
[18:30] <TenPoundHammer> [19:12:07] Dragonfly6-7, if it's low quality, I say just wipe it out.
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:12:23]
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:12:46] the thing is, this guy seems to be an expert. So we have to do this *delicately*
[18:30] <geniice> [19:12:51] topaz see the technique section
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:12:55] don't want to frighten him away
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:14:08] send him to WP:NOTHOW #5 #7 and give him a chance to rewrite it
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:14:46] I don't think anyone should delete it, it's superficially encyclopedic
[18:30] <geniice> [19:17:05] Dragonfly6-7 because anyone who could post those images is posible to frighten
 06[18:30] * Dragonfly6-7 [19:20:06] rolls eyes
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:20:22] I don't want him to think that Wikipedia is hostile towards him and an unrewarding environment in which to contribute
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:20:30] read his article on the [[triphalangeal thumb]], for instance
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:20:33] that's *good*
[18:30] <FT2> [19:23:25] he;'s put in a lot of work
 06[18:30] * Chaoticfluffy [19:24:58] reads editors talk page, mutters "oh dear, oh dear" to herself a few times
[18:30] <FT2> [19:26:13] df - may I rewrite your note?
[18:30] <FT2> [19:26:17] so as to be a bit gentler?
[18:30] <geniice> [19:26:24] "Wikipedia sister Wikia undergoes major redesign"  fuck
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:26:27] FT2 - go ahead
[18:30] <geniice> [19:26:31]
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:27:01] gah, social-web wiki
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:27:03] good ol bbc they are too busy playing cricket and "football" to check facts
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [19:27:25] And cricket.
 06[18:30] * PeterSymonds [19:27:27] sips.
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:27:30] Alyxuk: What was that you were saying about Amzaon allowing a controversial book?
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:27:54] geniice: The new design at Wikia isn't compatible with Firefox 2
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:28:05] PeterSymonds, why, is that Kool Aid you're drinking?
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:28:09] It breaks for a 'real' computer user like me...
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:28:09] I sometimes fantasize about prodding every footballer article that's less than 3000 bytes
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:28:21] I figure most of them are completely irrelevant so most would expire
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [19:28:23] killiondude, certainly not.
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:28:24] Qcoder00: why in the world are you using Firefox TWO?
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:28:28] Gigs: This article is a stub - DEL-ETE
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:28:43] Chaoticfluffy : No budget for upgardes
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:28:50] ...firefox is free
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:28:59] Qcoder00: the thing is, a lot of those guys have day jobs... it's not like professional sports here
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:29:18] Are they national side players?
[18:30] <geniice> [19:29:26] Gigs- oh yeah? well there's a pro footballer who doesn't even have an article and he rescued 30 people from an fing copper mine
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:29:27] Or play for Top-Tier clubs?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:29:57] Qcoder00: uhh... did you see that ludicrous display last night?
[18:30] <geniice> [19:30:06] Manuel Gonz谩lez hardcore
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:30:19] Gigs-: Which ludicrous display?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:30:41] Qcoder00: What was Wenger thinking sending Walcott on so early?
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:31:06] I don't watch football
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:31:11] hehehe
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:31:35] I prefer to watch competitive troll-baiting in ##politcs :(
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:31:42] *##politics
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:31:46] nor the IT crowd apparently
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:34:09] opinions on the relevance or irrelevance of this paragraph to [[Twinkie]] (i.e. worth article mention, or no?)?
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:34:10] geniice:  Thanks re the Commons thing
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:34:34] BarkingFish : In a good mood?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:34:48] chaoticfluffy: it seems fine to me.
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:35:07] Gigs-: fine as in should be there?
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:35:10] or fine as in good removal?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:35:19] it should be restored
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:35:53] For common items like that, a lot of the media coverage is going to center around things like that
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:36:07] unless you want an article drawn entirely from primary sources, you need information like that
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [19:36:09] Qcoder00: ask me in an hour :)
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:37:18] ok, that was more or less my feeling too, but i wanted a sanity check
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:37:21] thanks
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:43:16] man OTRS just goes around in circles
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:44:03] wp:otrs redirect to -> wp:vrt, the link in the last paragraph of the lede says "if you want to contact otrs go to WP:Contact Us", you go there and it leads you back to WP:VRT
[18:30] <DarkoNeko> [19:44:27] I'll be bach
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:44:48] Gigs-, I hate the "VRT" thing.
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:45:23] wp:otrs should land in a page with a bunch of email addresses plainly listed at the top
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:45:56] one of these days, when i get some energy, i am going to ram through the help-pages rehabilitation that we started at WikiconfNYC but that has lost steam since
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:46:26] the funny thing is that the pages that us wikiwonks use all the time are highly streamlined
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:46:43] it's the pages that we send newbies to that are a maze of twisty pages, all alike
[18:30] <Chaoticfluffy> [19:49:15] incidentally, here's the help-with-help page we started:
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:49:30] heheh anyone remember "virus creation labs" in DOS?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:49:54] they had help on help, and then if you hit help again they had "help on help on help" which described how to blow your brains out with a shotgun
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:50:49] did I give her the right queue?
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:51:25] i LOVE google earth historical imagery
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:51:28] I think, Gigs-.
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:51:34] we fucking DESTROYED germany.
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:51:42]
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:51:42] They always can be moved around in the system, so it's not a big deal if they email the wrong address.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:52:56] Gigs-: you should get in touch with Keegan about the OTRS -> crt thing
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:53:00] vrt*
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:53:24] I'm going to make a bold edit to add the email links to the vrt page
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:54:02] alyuk : Just like we DESTROYED thier team in 66? XD
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:54:11] Gigs - don't forget the word 'falsely'
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:54:13] I think the reason they do that (to be honest) is so they don't get a thousand emails.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:54:34] killiondude: the queues are pretty calm right now
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [19:55:13] I remember when somebody added quality's e-mail address to {{blp}}.
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:55:49]
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:55:50] BTW, while I have an audience, might I point you all to [[WP:CONTRIB]] -- we can use all the help we can get
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:56:48] heh swat, not to crap on your idea, but I think getting the word out isn't a problem
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:57:04] Gigs-: offline it is
[18:30] <Ottava> [19:57:05] OMG OMG OMG
[18:30] <Ottava> [19:57:13] Ironholds's book is for sale on Amazon
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:57:14] online, it's more about helping get better contributions
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:57:14] my wife who doesn't even edit wikipedia was using the web and said "a personal appeal from jimbo wales eh?"
[18:30] <Ottava> [19:57:15]
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:57:44] OLD NEWS.
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:57:44] Chanops
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:57:48] already linked to it, Ottava.
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:57:54] Any chanops?
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [19:57:56] alyxuk - put Ottava back on your /ignore
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:57:58] Gigs- we have a lot of readers who may see the fundraiser etc., but don't necessarily donate, or know why they should.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:58:16] It's not so much outreach ABOUT the fundraiser, but outreach in support of the fundraiser.
 06[18:30] * Ottava [19:58:26] gives killiondude a muffin
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [19:58:27] Qcoder00, I don't think we need to ban you just yet.
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:58:30] what were some major carpet bombing targets in germany in WW2? i wanna check it on the google :P
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [19:58:31] I'll keep an eye out though.
[18:30] <killiondude> [19:58:41] I'm going to skip my class and get lunch.
[18:30] <Ottava> [19:58:56] good!
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:58:57] PeterSymonds :  You probably know why I asked though....
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:59:01] we seemed to have wiped out berlin
[18:30] <Ottava> [19:59:02] lunch is way better than class
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [19:59:22] alyxuk: Dresden maybe?
[18:30] <alyxuk> [19:59:31] its just empty shells of housesm, all over berlin
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:59:46] alyxuk: berlin, guernica
[18:30] <Gigs-> [19:59:46] Customers Who Viewed This Item Also Viewed  "A Parent's Guide to Preventing Homosexuality " heh
[18:30] <SWATJester> [19:59:55] dresden
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:00:08] checking  Dresden
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:00:18] warsaw
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:00:23] cant see the same level of obvious carpet bombing, i cant spot any bomb marks
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:00:32] well, dresden was incendiary bombed
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:00:36] Gigs :  :O
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:00:37] << like that
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:01:03] dresden is really built up, its hard to spot anything
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:01:13] waaaaait
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:01:17] one of these maps has.. a cross on it
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:01:39] the "Albertinum" fine art museum, they put a cross on it, in pen
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:01:55] SWATJester: late reply, yeah I can see that.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:01:55]
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:02:08] re:the social media thing
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:02:45] interesting that we put a cross on it, though
[18:30] <alyxuk> [20:02:53] wonder where else we've got some
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:02:59] Gigs- makes you wonder why there isn't a "parents guide to prevent people who bought the other book from getting to your child"
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:03:16] SWATJester: as an idea, people like stupid thermometer type bars that go across the screen and real time display of money donated... it builds an excitement to see immediate effects and goal reaching... that's something I always thought WMF was lacking.  Look at the successful money bomb things, they all had that.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:03:22] Tokyo was fire bombed
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:03:47] Gigs-: that's an idea, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe you can add it to the task planning page?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:04:04] SWATJester: ok
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:04:04] (and sign up)
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:04:13] hehe I don't know about htat
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:04:19] Gigs, instead of signing up for that sign up for my facebook group
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:04:42] gigs-: it's a "work on it as you choose to" thing, not something we're going to be putting demands on you to perform
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:04:49]!/home.php?sk=group_169572306395031 Gigs-
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:04:50] sort of like a wikiproject
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [20:06:42] Gigs - you want it done, you do it
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:07:24] Dragonfly6-7: if WMF wants money, they can do it
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:07:30] Dragonfly6-7: they don't pay me
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:07:32] If you want something done, don't do it, otherwise, people will complain that you are doing something, you end up getting banned, and the wiki returns to its previously crappy state
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:11:54]
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:12:28] I clicked.
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:12:37] tl;dr
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:13:41] interesting page
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:18:39] PeterSymonds: why hide them
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:18:48] Hmm?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:19:08] PeterSymonds: the otrs stuff, it's all like 4 levels deep and you are liable to head in circles
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:19:08] Oh, the OTRS page?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:19:35] PeterSymonds: every time I need to look up an OTRS address it takes me about 15 minutes to find them, just imagine what a newbie is up against
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:20:02] Yeah, we don't really want addresses on that page, since it's for established editors. In the past the purpose of those addresses has been misinterpreted by established users and stuff we can't deal with has been sent.
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:20:05] Gigs: There are level in OTRS?
[18:30] <Ironholds> [20:20:11] Qcoder00: yup
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:20:24] Gigs - almost impossible to find the email addresses for OTRS on sister projects, including Meta
[18:30] <Ironholds> [20:20:24] it goes from Alpha to Theta
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:20:30] Most established users won't need the addresses; they're for readers and infrequent contributors really.
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [20:20:48] Operating Thetan Removal System
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:20:50] But the permissions-* e-mail addresses are quite visible.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:21:01] Thetans? Like Scientology?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:21:01] o.O
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:21:03] Dragonfly6-7:  Isn't that Arbcom?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:21:07] PeterSymonds: I need them kind of often
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:21:13] Aren't scientologists banned by ArbCom?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:21:14] omgz
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:21:15] PeterSymonds: maybe once every 3 months
 06[18:30] * Qcoder00 [20:21:19] needs to take his anti-giggles medication...
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:21:33] Well, you can note them down.
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:21:36] just ask on irc
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:21:48] Killiondude, how is lunch?
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:21:48] works for everything as well :-P
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:21:53] lunch!
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:21:58] PeterSymonds: anyway wp:otrs leads you to wp:contact us, if you read carefully, wp:contact us/article problem leads you back to wp:otrs if you click on "volunteer response email"
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:22:19] it just goes in circles
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:22:21] Gigs- do not look behind that curtain!!!
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:22:24] It does; but WP:VRT is a documentation page.
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:22:34] WP:Contact us is for people who need the addresses.
[18:30] <geniice> [20:22:36] Gigs so whats the problem?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:22:41] if wp:vrt is for experienced users, why does wp:contact us send you to it?
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:23:18] wp:otrs -> wp:vrt -> Wikipedia:Contact_us -> Report a problem with an article  -> Volunteer response email -> wp:vrt
[18:30] <geniice> [20:23:44] so whats the problem?
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:23:46] Gigs: It's the Google approach to help
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:23:48] ;)
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:23:52] geniice: it's a maze of useless pages
[18:30] <geniice> [20:24:00] thats a feature
[18:30] <geniice> [20:24:06] OTRS is undermanned
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:24:08] Someone, please just add OTRS's email on WP:Contact_us
[18:30] <geniice> [20:24:23] getting rid of the time wasters is useful
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:24:24] ' You are in a maze of twisty turny page links, You may be berated by a sysop' XD
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:24:31] it already is I think.
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:24:33] All of the needed addresses are there, Ottava.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:24:35] info-en@
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:24:41] Depends on the subpage.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:24:47] PeterSymonds - info-en@ does not look like it would go to OTRS
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:24:53] It does.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:25:01] Ottava: it is one of the main queues.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:25:09] The words OTRS does not appear
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:25:13] so it is impossible to tell that
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:25:25] OTRS is just the system we use. People don't need to know that.
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:25:36] it's also what everyone calls it
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:25:47] Every established editor, yeah.
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:25:50] Pretty much all email to the foundation goes through OTRS unless its either internal, or to a direct address.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:25:51]  That should have "If you have an OTRS concern, email info-en@ ..."
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:25:53] The people who e-mail don't call it that.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:26:05] I do
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:26:10] and I direct people to contact us
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:26:12] PeterSymonds: at least unlink the words "Volunteer response email" in Wikipedia:Contact_us/Article_problem so that it's not a loop
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:26:23] I know others who say "contact OTRS" about matters
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:26:30] and there isnt even an email on WP:OTRS
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:26:32] PeterSymonds: the page is fully protected so I can't
[18:30] <Peter-C> [20:26:58]'Brien O_o
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:27:48] I don't see why we should. The page is there for documentation of the system.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:27:52] How do you have WP:OTRS and no email address to actually email them!!!
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:27:55] It's available to anyone who wants it.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:27:57] That is ridiculous
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:27:59] PeterSymonds: arg!
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:28:02] Just add it
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:28:09] "If you need to email OTRS, email: ..."
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:28:10] I did add it, PeterSymonds reverted me
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:28:11] How hard is that?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:28:24] Gigs - take it to the Admin Noticeboard
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:28:30] It is something that should be public
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:28:32] heh wtf Ottava
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:28:32] and available
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:00] It is almost impossible to know how to email OTRS even though any licensing matter and the rest requires it
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:08] and many admin say "email OTRS" but dont even know the address
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:12] why is it secret?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:13] that is bs
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:29:18] calm down man
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:22] Just add it to the WP:OTRS and WP:Contact_us
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:23] Easy
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:24] simple
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:29:30] ur mother is simple.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:29:36] I'm adding it to Wikiversity's contact us page
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:30:30] Ottava, I'm not sure what you're getting at. WP:VRT is linked from the contact us page. But the purposes of those two pages are very different.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:30:50] Peter, it should be on multiple pages
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:31:03] One is to inform people how to contact us. The other is documentation of the contact system itself.
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:31:21] PeterSymonds: wp:vrt directs you to wp:contact us, wp:contact us directs you to wp:contact us/article issues  that directs you back to wp:vrt...
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:31:36] Yeah, because they're all relevant to each other.
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:31:58] that would be fine if it were clear how to actually get where you want to go... to get the email addresses
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:32:01] PeterSymonds, but Gigs- keeps following the links and going back and forth!!!
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:32:06] it's making me dizzy
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:33:40] "Users have two main ways to contact Wikipedia:"  except none of these links lead to any of them!
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:33:45] Anyway
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:33:51] I added 12 times on Wikiversity
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:33:56] and Im about to spam it all over Meta
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:33:58] brb
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:34:17] Uh Oh :(
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:35:13] do favicons take time?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:35:18] Okay, now Im going to add it to Commons, Source, and the various simple, fr, and es projects
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:35:21] wait
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:35:24] killiondude: no not really, but the can be cached
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:35:24] scratch the foreign language
[18:30] <topaz> [20:35:42] it may take time to create one.
[18:30] <Gigs-> [20:35:43] killiondude: the browser only makes on request and if it's 404 then it's not going to keep trying
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:36:12] hm.
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:37:56] i just didn't have it done correct.y
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:37:59] correctly.
[18:30] <Addihockey10> [20:38:55] Hey does anyone know why SoxBot isn't working at UAA?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:39:21] because you touch yourself at night
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:39:26] SoxBot doesnt like that
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:39:26] ;/
[18:30] <SWATJester> [20:39:27] Hey who operates BrownBot?
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:39:43] mz?
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:39:56] kibble.
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:40:12] oh, it says right on it's userpage.
 06[18:30] * killiondude [20:40:16] stares at SWATJester.
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:40:19] its
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:40:59] Omg!
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:41:04] Im BrownBots operator!!!
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [20:41:17] No you're just odd.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:41:22] :(
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:41:47] At least I am prettier than you :D
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:42:04] I'm the proud owner of
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:42:16] So, then, why is it a gay porn site?
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:42:19] o.O
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:42:37] Chanops?
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:42:38] We're going to have a 3 strikes rule with Ottava.
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:42:39] That's one strike.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:42:52] What? It was funny
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:42:53] : P
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:43:02] don't push your luck!
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:43:10] omgz :(
 06[18:30] * Ottava [20:43:15] gives killiondude a muffin
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:43:19] Sounds like a name for a comic book promo though
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:43:21] you are just grumpy cause you are starving!!!
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:43:22] ;)
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:43:47] I am starving. :-x
[18:30] <killiondude> [20:43:58] I am going to get Panda Express on the way to school in a bit.
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:44:18] Mmmmmm endangered species
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:44:39] Brb, I need to go feed the horses.
[18:30] <Ironholds> [20:44:49] neigh
[18:30] <Peter-C> [20:49:40] The NEJM has an ad ratio of 1:3
[18:30] <Peter-C> [20:49:54] That is a crap load in my opnion >_>
[18:30] <Ottava> [20:53:01] back
 06[18:30] * Peter-C [20:53:43] licks BarkingFish
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:53:57] Hi BarkingFish , In a good mood?
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:54:06] hi Peter-C :)
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:54:08] I am now
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:54:12] We have water at last
[18:30] <Peter-C> [20:54:14] Because I licked you?
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:54:16] after 7 hours without any
[18:30] <Peter-C> [20:54:18] oh
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:54:25] burst main
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:54:45] Any admins on the floor, can you please close - as nominator has withdrawn
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:57:26] BarkingFish:  Burst main :(
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:57:29] Thats bad
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:57:36] Any pictures?
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:57:47] no, wrong end of town
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:58:09] i've been at work most of the day, or i'd have buggered off and got some
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:58:41] North of England's in for a battering overnight
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [20:58:51] 80mph gales or something
 06[18:30] * Qcoder00 [20:59:13] hates to imagine what the shipping forecast is like...
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [20:59:23] apparently parts of the UK had snow overnight, to the point where councils were gritting major roads
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [21:00:34] Hope they have enough Grit....
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [21:00:37] XD
[18:30] <gurch> [21:02:37] :(
 06[18:30] * gurch [21:02:50] hates weather
 06[18:30] * gurch [21:03:09] wants hug
[18:30] <killiondude> [21:04:49] hi
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [21:04:52]
 06[18:30] * Ottava [21:04:55] hugs gurch
[18:30] <killiondude> [21:05:01] well, I've got mediawiki uploading to
[18:30] <killiondude> [21:05:03] must be going!
[18:30] <Qcoder00> [21:05:03] Apparently the UK DEA is to be looked at again
[18:30] <geniice> [21:05:06] And I want unlimited ammo and a license to kill
[18:30] <geniice> [21:06:14] life tends not to deliver
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:07:09] geniice - come to the US
[18:30] <Peter-C> [21:07:15] BarkingFish around?
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:07:29] yep
[18:30] <Peter-C> [21:08:06] Know any sites about how to read ECG's?
[18:30] <Peter-C> [21:08:11] All I need is the basics
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:08:19] for another 53 minutes, then i'm vanishing to watch a double "Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives" :)
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:08:35] Give me a mo and I'll find something - I've got nothing off the top of my head
[18:30] <Peter-C> [21:08:41] Ok
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:09:24] here ya go
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:09:37] the basics of basic ECG reading and how to understand wtf you're looking at
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:09:42]
[18:30] <Peter-C> [21:11:07] thanks ^_^
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:11:13] yw :)
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:11:20] meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:11:23] oooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:12:02] Omgz, a Laura
[18:30] <Peter-C> [21:12:52] o.o
 06[18:30] * Peter-C [21:12:57] shoots Ottava
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:13:12] ow :(
 06[18:30] * Peter-C [21:17:30] pokes BarkingFish with
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:19:44] love to watch it, Peter-C - but I just found out, trying to play that, that my [censored by client] [censored by client] damned [censored by client] sound server has crashed
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:19:53] I'll be back in a minute
[18:30] <Dragonfly6-7> [21:24:04] back
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:38:11] any admins here with access to the ban list for the channel? I need some assistance
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:38:34] Erm. Sure. :-p
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:38:48] I've just seen someone join another wiki channel, I suspect it's Georgie Gibbons under a different nick, can someone pull his last join mask if he's still banned please?
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:38:49] The banlists aren't private though.
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:39:30] In here? No; there's no point unless he's a real pain. He can evade fairly easily.
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:40:42] I've got him in my ignore list, but I didn't add his mask PeterSymonds - only ignored him by nick...
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:41:01] He doesn't have a mask.
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:41:18] His IP range is huge anyway.
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:41:27] hmm
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:41:34] are you talking about me again?
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:41:35] o.O
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:42:48] no Ottava we're not. You're safe :)
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:42:57] ..For now!
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:43:39] PeterSymonds: All I remember was that he was on a 92.x.x.x range from Three Mobile broadband, and we had one join #wikinews, which is why I was looking for it.
[18:30] <BarkingFish> [21:43:58] if he shows up here, he may be under the nickname Halo
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:44:02] 92. covers a large chunk of Britain.
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:49:35]
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:49:42] OMG PeterSymonds, why did you do that?!?!
[18:30] <PeterSymonds> [21:50:45] That's a big "oops" for somebody.
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:51:48]
[18:30] <Jamesofur> [21:58:00] Banners are up, we are going to be bouncing back and forth starting low % then going high and back as we change servers. Server testing
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:58:16]
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:58:17] OMG
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:58:23] China is modeling its policies on Wikipedia
[18:30] <Ottava> [21:58:23] XD
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:00:14] oh god what the fuck is with that giant "Message from Jimbo" banner
[18:30] <DerHexer> [22:00:34] fundraising times
[18:30] <DerHexer> [22:00:35] as usual
[18:30] <DerHexer> [22:00:44] you may remove it via CSS
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:00:52] it's a bit too much
[18:30] <Brian_S> [22:01:08] lol
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:01:38] meow
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:01:51] Ryulong, Chzz had a question about Japanese
[18:30] <geniice> [22:02:16] Ryulong the foundation needs to pay for 180 odd people
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:02:44] Ottava: I can't speak Japanese
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:02:45] 锛堛��锝�銉悸达級
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:03:36] sou desu ne
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:04:26] but I will attempt my est
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:04:27] daijoubu desu; I'll ask a Japanese friend later
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:04:28] *best
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:04:39] ask away
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:05:35] well, it's a bit obscure. I speak a bit myself. But... y'know when authors of books etc put 'anon' for anonymous? I wondered if Japanese folk put "tokumei" or something
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:08:17] I usually see 鍚嶇劇銇�
[18:30] <Shirik> [22:09:24] (18:03:26) (Chzz) sou desu ne
[18:30] <Shirik> [22:09:30] I demand kana
[18:30] <Shirik> [22:09:45] 銇濄亞銇с仚銇紵
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:10:28] Shirik is lame
[18:30] <Shirik> [22:10:35] 锛氾紙
[18:30] <Pilif12p> [22:10:48] :(
 06[18:30] * Ottava [22:11:06] hugs Shirik
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:11:59] Ironholds name is now bob? o.O
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:12:08] Ryulong as in 'nana'?
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:12:14] yes
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:12:21] ok, cool, that'll do, domo
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:13:05] nanashi
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:13:06] specifically
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:13:09] mmm
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:13:17] "Information on Nanashi (account Nanashi):
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:13:17] [23:12] -NickServ- Registered : Apr 20 18:13:05 2010"
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:13:18] bum
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:13:26] but that's from futaba
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:13:46] how about namonai
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:14:16] nyu
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:14:43] or 鐒″悕姘�
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:14:54] or 鐒″悕
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:15:34] more casual, 'no name'? hm.
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:15:49] How about the Japanese equivalent of "Your Mom"
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:15:57] Chzz - Mumyou is a good term
[18:30] <Ryulong> [22:15:59] omae mo na
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:16:06] Yarinaosu is also a good one
[18:30] <Chzz> [22:16:54] 'bakagaijin' works too
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:17:47] I like Yarinaosu myself
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:21:54]
[18:30] <Ottava> [22:23:18] nyao
[18:30] <***> Playback Complete.
 08[18:31] <derp> Hello Trolls.
 03[18:31] * Ryulong (~ryulong67@wikimedia/Ryulong) has left #wikipedia-en
 06[18:31] * Peter-C attacks Jamesofur
 06[18:31] * Peter-C cries
[18:32] <Peter-C> Why did you make this happen D:
[18:32] <Peter-C> Is it that time of year yet?
[18:32] <PeterSymonds> Actually the Foundation made it happen.
[18:32] <Peter-C> Or is this another beta?
[18:32] <PeterSymonds> He just switched it on.
[18:32] <Peter-C> He is their pawn!
[18:32] <Peter-C> Destroy him!
 08[18:32] <derp> PeterSymonds, so you've stole stuff in London...
[18:33] <Peter-C> PeterSymonds steals O_o
[18:33] <PeterSymonds> I was unaware of this.
 06[18:33] * Peter-C cannot see that
 08[18:33] <derp> PeterSymonds, i saw you on TV :P
[18:33] <PeterSymonds> Hmm.
[18:33] <Peter-C> o_o
[18:33] <Peter-C> How do you know what he looks like
[18:33] <Peter-C> O_o
 08[18:34] <derp> PeterSymonds, did you protest :P
 15[18:34] * Shirley (sex@wikipedia/MZMcBride) Quit (Excess Flood )
[18:34] <Chaoticfluffy_> what is Peter-C whining about?
 08[18:34] <derp> and a good ol' fashioned britsh riot
 06[18:35] * Peter-C looks at PeterSymonds
 06[18:35] * Peter-C looks at
 06[18:35] * Peter-C wonders...
[18:35] <PeterSymonds> Yes it's naturally named after me.
[18:36] <Peter-C> PeterSymonds :O
 03[18:37] * Shirley (sex@wikipedia/MZMcBride) has joined #wikipedia-en
[18:37] <Chaoticfluffy_> Oh. Hi, Jimbo staring at me. You must be what Peter-C is whining about!
 08[18:37] <derp> So this is how the internets work...
 08[18:37] <derp> with a Shirik pooping up...
[18:37] <Chaoticfluffy_> who's pooping??
 08[18:37] <derp> i meant popping up
 08[18:37] <derp> not pooping up...
[18:37] <Peter-C> Can you poop upwards O_o
 08[18:38] <derp> Peter-C, when you're standing down yes
 06[18:38] * Peter-C hires a science team to defy gravity
 08[18:38] <derp> Just do it in space
 08[18:38] <derp> :P
[18:41] <SWATJester> If you guys want Jimmy off your screen faster, feel free to help out the contribution team: [[WP:CONTRIB]].
[18:41] <Chaoticfluffy_> my strategy was just to click the x...
 08[18:44] * derp licks SWATJester
 08[18:45] <derp> I miss ST47
 15[18:45] * SpitfireWP (~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[18:45] <Betacommand> derp: why?
 08[18:45] <derp> oh
 08[18:45] <derp> i used to talk a lot with him
[18:45] <Betacommand> ah
 03[18:54] * sonia (ca254030@wikipedia/sonia) has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[18:54] * Qcoder00 (~chatzilla@ Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox] )
 15[18:57] * Betacommand (~Betacomma@unaffiliated/betacommand) Quit (Disconnected by services )
 03[18:57] * Betacommand (~Betacomma@unaffiliated/betacommand) has joined #wikipedia-en
 03[18:57] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@ has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[18:57] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@ Quit (Changing host )
 03[18:57] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@unaffiliated/a1ex1) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[18:58] * Chaoticfluffy_ weighs doing something productive tonight against eating a bunch of candy and playing games
[18:58] <geniice> eat candy while doing something productive?
[18:59] <Chaoticfluffy_> nahhhh
 15[18:59] * Panyd ( Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630] )
 08[18:59] <derp> geniice, taking a dump and editing wikipedia at the same time?
 15[19:00] * Hello71 (~Hello71@wikia/Hello71) Quit
 03[19:01] * Tdubell (c0bd2e1e@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikipedia-en
 03[19:01] * emarose (519eae77@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikipedia-en
 03[19:02] * Emw (~emw@wikipedia/Emw) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:03] <Tdubell> hey emarose
[19:03] <emarose> greetings tdubell
 03[19:06] * Avruch ( has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[19:06] * Avruch ( Quit (Changing host )
 03[19:06] * Avruch (Avruch@wikimedia/Nathan) has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[19:07] * Teles (~teles@wikimedia/teles) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630] )
 15[19:07] * kateweb (~kateweb@unaffiliated/kateweb) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
 03[19:07] * kateweb (~kateweb@unaffiliated/kateweb) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[19:08] * Peter-C huggles Chaoticfluffy_
[19:08] <Peter-C> My wiki birthday is in 3 days ^_^
[19:08] <Chaoticfluffy_> lucky for you gurch isn't here to challenge you for hugging rights
[19:08] <Chaoticfluffy_> ooh, birthday! 15?
[19:08] <Peter-C> No....
[19:08] <Peter-C> Wiki birthday
[19:09] <Chaoticfluffy_> oh
 06[19:09] * sonia huggles Chaoticfluffy_ also
[19:09] <Chaoticfluffy_> less fun
[19:09] <Peter-C> I will turn 2!!! :D
[19:09] <Chaoticfluffy_> awww, almost time to start thinking about getting out of diapers :P
 06[19:09] * Peter-C huggles his mom
[19:09] <Peter-C> s/mom/sonia
 03[19:09] * MindstormsKid (~msk@Wikipedia/MindstormsKid) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[19:09] * Peter-C tosses his diapers at MindstormsKid
[19:09] <Peter-C> I'm a big kid now ^_^
 06[19:09] * sonia throws Peter-C against the wall
[19:09] <sonia> child abuse :P
[19:10] <Chaoticfluffy_> yeah but when he sticks and walks down, it's so cute ;)
[19:10] <sonia> you can have him if you like
 06[19:10] * Chaoticfluffy_ thinks that's yet another reference Peter-C is too young for
 03[19:10] * Tdubell (c0bd2e1e@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has left #wikipedia-en
 15[19:10] * emarose (519eae77@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed )
[19:10] <Peter-C> Mommy D:
[19:11] <Chaoticfluffy_> unless you're a 3-year-old greyhound, i ain't yo' momma
 06[19:11] * Peter-C eats all the food in sonia's frige
[19:11] <Peter-C> om nom nom nom nom nom
 15[19:11] * Ottava ( Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds )
 06[19:11] * sonia throws up her hands in despair
[19:12] <Chaoticfluffy_> send him to reform school!
[19:12] <sonia> Peter-C, how many times must I tell you frozen chicken is bad for your teeth?
[19:12] <Peter-C> >_>
[19:12] <Peter-C> <_<
 06[19:12] * Peter-C burps up the chicken
[19:12] <Peter-C> Happy?
[19:13] <sonia> if you don't behave, I'll... I'll...
 06[19:13] * sonia thinks
[19:13] <sonia> I'll nominate you for RfA
[19:13] <sonia> HAH!
 06[19:13] * Chaoticfluffy_ cackles
[19:13] <Peter-C> MOM! That is just crossing a line!
 03[19:13] * Addihockey10 (46438582@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:13] <Peter-C> They will eat me alive!
 06[19:14] * Peter-C cries in the corner
[19:14] <sonia> exactly.
[19:14] <Peter-C> I lost my friend in an RfA
[19:14] <Peter-C> They just picked at him
[19:14] <Chaoticfluffy_> ...
[19:14] <Peter-C> and nothing was left D:
[19:14] <Chaoticfluffy_> you had a friend?
[19:14] <Peter-C> >_>
[19:14] <Chaoticfluffy_> (ba-dum-SSH)
[19:14] <sonia> *rimshot*
 06[19:14] * Peter-C tosses Chaoticfluffy_ out the window and onto sonia's car
[19:14] <sonia> D:
[19:15] <Chaoticfluffy_> sonia did you just recently nom someone for an rfa? i feel like i've seen your name somewhere lately
 03[19:15] * MuZemike (~MuZemike@wikimedia/MuZemike) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[19:15] * Peter-C tosses MuZemike at sonia
[19:15] <sonia> :o
 03[19:15] * Thorncrag|w (0c0f92fe@wikimedia/Thorncrag) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:15] <sonia> Peter-C, you just squished me.
[19:16] <Peter-C> [[WikiLove]] ^_^
 03[19:16] * IDoH ( has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:16] <IDoH> Hey guys
[19:16] <sonia> Chaoticfluffy_ , not unless I was drunk
[19:16] <Chaoticfluffy_> hm. wonder where i got that idea, then.
[19:16] <sonia> me and rfa somehow?
 06[19:16] * sonia thinks
[19:16] <Chaoticfluffy_> any appearances on drama central in a supporting roll?
[19:17] <Peter-C> We should get sonia drunk and leave her alone on Wikipedia and see what she does!
[19:17] <sonia> no, I stay away from ANI for the most part...
[19:17] <Chaoticfluffy_> ok. must just be the voices in my head lying to me again <_<
[19:18] <sonia> I've hardly edited this month. :P
 15[19:18] * Falcorian (~Falcorian@wikipedia/Falcorian) Quit (Quit: Leaving. )
[19:18] <MuZemike> What's up on ANI, now?
 15[19:18] * PeterSymonds (~Peter@wikimedia/PeterSymonds) Quit (Quit: Leaving )
[19:18] <sonia> MuZemike: you will be in a second.
[19:18] <Chaoticfluffy_> nothing. i was trying to figure out why thought sonia had been mentioned in something drama-ish recently
[19:18] <IDoH> Dramaz, I'm sure.
[19:18] <MuZemike> "IRC harassment my MuZemike"
[19:19] <IDoH> LOL
[19:19] <sonia> well, Peter-C did throw you at me.
[19:19] <IDoH> Uh oh, Peter-C is throwing people?
[19:19] <Chaoticfluffy_> although last time i checked, there was some fun drama there where Baseball Bugs was ranting about athiests
 06[19:19] * IDoH hides behind sonia
[19:19] <MuZemike> If "Mr. Internets S. Connection" decides to cooperate with me.
[19:20] <IDoH> People who rant religion irritate me.
[19:20] <IDoH> *rant about religion, even.
 03[19:20] * Giftpflanze (~gifti@Wikimedia/Giftpflanze) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:20] <MuZemike> Or perhaps WP is down
[19:20] <Addihockey10> Religion just confuses me
[19:20] <IDoH> hey gift
 03[19:20] * SpitfireWP (~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:20] <sonia> it's not loading for me.
[19:20] <Addihockey10> It's not just me?
[19:20] <Thorncrag|w> Nope.
 06[19:20] * Chaoticfluffy_ checks
[19:21] <sonia> in the meantime, I'm trying to find Jessica Liao on facebook.
[19:21] <MuZemike> Ah, here we go
[19:21] <Giftpflanze> hi
[19:21] <IDoH> I've reloaded the page I was on when I came in, and it's not loading on my end, either.
 06[19:21] * Chaoticfluffy_ sounds the emergency klaxons
[19:21] <Addihockey10> is frantically trying to load his watchlist :P
[19:21] <Betacommand> ping
[19:21] <Peter-C> WIKI IS DOWN
[19:21] <Chaoticfluffy_> i'm getting nothing
[19:21] <Chaoticfluffy_> EVERYBODY PANIC
[19:21] <Peter-C> We have a wiki down!
[19:21] <sonia> Addihockey10: for some reason I thought you were a girl
[19:21] <MuZemike> Some stalkers, complaints above a deleted image, an AFD, socks, ...
 06[19:21] * Peter-C tosses his chair into his monitor
[19:22] <Chaoticfluffy_> well that's not gonna fix anything!
[19:22] <MuZemike> That one idiot is finally community banned.
[19:22] <IDoH> My connection to wikipedia just timed out
[19:22] <IDoH> Which one idiot, Muzemike?
[19:22] <Chaoticfluffy_> something with a j
[19:22] <MuZemike> [[User:Justa Punk]]
[19:22] <Giftpflanze> 5 minutes no irc-rc feed, amazing ;)
[19:23] <IDoH> Ah, apparently she's a bit notable around these parts, but not in a way that gets you an article.
[19:23] <MuZemike> Any more Giano-related drama?
[19:23] <Peter-C> Please! Somebody think about the children!
[19:23] <IDoH> Ooh, Giano, I've heard of him...
[19:24] <MuZemike> FWIW, *anything* involving Giano = drama.
[19:24] <IDoH> ...but not lately.
[19:24] <MuZemike> lolwut
[19:24] <Chaoticfluffy_> well there was the Giano "inquiry" about Rlevse
 06[19:24] * Peter-C votes we kill the server kitties ^_^
 06[19:24] * Chaoticfluffy_ shoves a handful of marshmallows into Peter-C's mouth
[19:24] <IDoH> Then again, I tend to not hang out with people with drama swirling around them.
[19:24] <IDoH> lol
 03[19:25] * Pilif12p (~Pilif12p@firefox/community/pilif12p) has left #wikipedia-en ("Leaving" )
 06[19:25] * sonia shoves a handful of kitten in Chaoticfluffy_'s mouth
[19:25] <MuZemike> Secure kills server kitties
[19:25] <sonia> now your mouth is chaotically fluffy
 06[19:25] * Chaoticfluffy_ is allergic to kitten!
[19:25] <Thorncrag|w> People don't realize that the poor approaches they take on an issue often mitigate their arguments
[19:26] <MuZemike> I won't names of users who intentionally do that, but you are right.
[19:26] <MuZemike> *name names
[19:26] <Thorncrag|w> intentionally do that makes them a textbook troll
[19:26] <Thorncrag|w> a troll is anyone who deliberately provokes other people simply for the pleasure of seeing their reaction
[19:26] <IDoH> The site is loading now!
[19:27] <Peter-C> Thorncrag smells!
 06[19:27] * Peter-C runs
[19:27] <MuZemike> Who's idea was it to place [[User talk:Jimbo Wales#Adminship and RfA]] on WP:CENT?
[19:27] <MuZemike> IDoH: You may have also heard about him, too.
[19:27] <IDoH> Apparently the server problems are sporadic...false alarm.
[19:27] <Peter-C> Everyone! !!!
[19:27] <Chaoticfluffy_> well, it did seem like a weird place to hold an RFC, just on his talk
[19:27] <Peter-C> The site is up!
 15[19:28] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@unaffiliated/a1ex1) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[19:28] <IDoH> Yeah, Jimbo Wales co-founded Wikipedia
[19:28] <Peter-C> LOL I heard the funniest thing
[19:28] <Peter-C> "Ever wonder if that $1 dollar bill in your wallet was ever in a stripper's g-string? Bet you're wondering now, huh?"
[19:28] <IDoH> lol
[19:29] <Chaoticfluffy_> did you get that from the magical sergeant of doom?
[19:29] <Peter-C> o.o
 03[19:29] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@ has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:29] <Peter-C> I got it from a female paramedic on twitter
 15[19:29] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@ Quit (Changing host )
 03[19:29] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@unaffiliated/a1ex1) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:30] <MuZemike> My argument there is that the community has made RFA the way it is, now.
 03[19:30] * philknight ( has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[19:31] * philknight ( Quit (Changing host )
 03[19:31] * philknight (~chatzilla@wikipedia/philknight) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:31] <RandomTime> is WP down?
[19:31] <Giftpflanze> not now
[19:31] <RandomTime> hrm
[19:31] <Chaoticfluffy_> MuZemike: if by "the community" you mean "screamy people from the community"
[19:31] <MuZemike> The "angry community"
[19:32] <Peter-C> WE ARE NOT ANGRY
 06[19:32] * Peter-C tosses a beer bottle at MuZemike
[19:32] <IDoH> I think it's down again.
[19:32] <Peter-C> IDoH you cursed it
[19:32] <IDoH> I did? Darn it!
[19:33] <Chaoticfluffy_> Peter-C's beer bottle clearly broke something important
 15[19:33] * Headbomb|Laptop (~Headbomb@Wikipedia/Headbomb) Quit (Remote host closed the connection )
[19:33] <sonia> that is to say, not his brain.
[19:33] <Chaoticfluffy_> bahaha
[19:33] <IDoH> Well, maybe it was his brain. :-O ;-)
 03[19:33] * Headbomb|Laptop (~Headbomb@Wikipedia/Headbomb) has joined #wikipedia-en
 08[19:33] Clones detected from Wikipedia/Headbomb: 8 Headbomb Headbomb|Laptop
[19:34] <IDoH> wb headbomb
 06[19:34] * Chaoticfluffy_ just got an impulse to be on-wiki productive
[19:34] <Chaoticfluffy_> and the wiki isn't loading
[19:34] <Chaoticfluffy_> THE HORROR
[19:34] <Thorncrag|w> MuZemike: I think the problems with RfA are symptomatic of the general problem of the defined role of administrators, first
[19:35] <Peter-C> Chaoticfluffy_ WE HAVE NO PURPOSE!
[19:35] <MuZemike> Well, which came first, the chicken or the egg?
[19:35] <Peter-C> </High School ref>
 06[19:35] * Chaoticfluffy_ thinks the trouble with RFA is people having really strange, restrictive requirements
[19:35] <Thorncrag|w> for instance, you often hear people arguing that administrators have no authority or power, which demonstrates that they don't understand the meaning of either term
 06[19:35] * Peter-C tosses a cross at MuZemike
[19:35] <Peter-C> GOD
[19:35] <Peter-C> Now go pray to that Jesus guy
[19:36] <Chaoticfluffy_> MuZemike is not god, no matter what he might have tried to convince you of
[19:36] <MuZemike> i.e. Is it the community's fault for making RFA as it is, or is it the admins who anger the community who in return makes RFA the problem as it is?
[19:36] <sonia> It has been a natural progression, I think.
 03[19:36] * Mike5 (Mike5@ has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:36] <Mike5>
[19:36] <IDoH> Well, actually, they do both have authority and power, but at least in theory, it would be because the community trusts them.
[19:36] <sonia> leader of a tiny village is no big deal, for they are all basically equals.
[19:36] <Mike5> This article is about not (yet) persons. For skilled or talented persons, see skill and talent.
[19:36] <IDoH> hey Mike5
[19:36] <Mike5> heya
 06[19:36] * Chaoticfluffy_ throws a POV fork at the POV fork
[19:37] <Peter-C> I think people have the idea that you must meet tough regulations to be an admin on such a popular site
[19:37] <sonia> but as the population grows, and external recognition does, suddenly the structure of the community does mean something.
[19:37] <Peter-C> because you could do some serious damage
[19:37] <sonia> or at least, it is regarded as meaning something.
[19:37] <Peter-C> But it shouldn't be silly things
[19:37] <sonia> define silly.
[19:37] <IDoH> like your edit count? or whether or not there are too many admins? or too many anti-vandal admins?
[19:37] <Peter-C> "If they forget edit sums they must be a vandal"
[19:38] <Chaoticfluffy_> i'm sure people genuinely think that if you haven't written 10 FAs, you can't function as an admin. But I'm also sure that some people believe super-weird things
[19:38] <IDoH>
[19:38] <Peter-C> "Only 4,000 edits? GO DIE"
[19:38] <Peter-C> "Only ONE GA? Ha! Funny"
 15[19:38] * Betacommand (~Betacomma@unaffiliated/betacommand) Quit (Disconnected by services )
[19:38] <Peter-C> "You made a joke on IRC, immature!"
 03[19:38] * Betacommand (~Betacomma@unaffiliated/betacommand) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[19:39] * IDoH thinks an admin with a sense of humor is always a good thing
[19:39] <DarkoNeko> nighty
[19:39] <Peter-C>
[19:39] <Peter-C> night
[19:39] <Chaoticfluffy_> well, people were just looking for something to grab on to as a reason to oppose Thing
 15[19:39] * DarkoNeko (~darkoneko@wikipedia/darkoneko) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[19:40] <Peter-C> I love The_Thing
[19:40] <Peter-C> He NEEDS to be an admin
[19:40] <The_Thing> O_O
[19:40] <The_Thing> ERM
[19:40] <The_Thing> oh
[19:40] <Peter-C> Love as an editer
[19:40] <The_Thing> I'm like "Hey, I don't go that way"
[19:40] <The_Thing> :P
[19:40] <Peter-C> :P
[19:40] <Peter-C> I love you just like I love cheeseburgers ^_^
 15[19:41] * Mike5 (Mike5@ Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds )
[19:41] <The_Thing> O_O You want to eat me???
[19:41] <The_Thing> also s/editer/editor
 15[19:41] * philknight (~chatzilla@wikipedia/philknight) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101027124101] )
[19:41] <Peter-C> >_>
 06[19:42] * Peter-C drenchs The_Thing in beer
 15[19:42] * SpitfireWP (~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire) Quit (Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see. )
[19:42] <The_Thing> :o but I'm not old enough y et
[19:43] <The_Thing> A little over a year and I will be :P
 15[19:43] * sonia (ca254030@wikipedia/sonia) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds )
[19:43] <Peter-C> I was actually going for "NO! I AM MORMON!" But ok
 03[19:43] * sonia (ca254030@wikipedia/sonia) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:43] <Chaoticfluffy_> Do not eat The_Thing
[19:43] <Chaoticfluffy_> Do not taunt The_Thing
[19:44] <Chaoticfluffy_> Do not heat The_Thing past safe temperatures
[19:44] <Peter-C> You can blame The_Thing but you can't eat The_Thing
[19:44] <Peter-C> ^_^
[19:45] <FT2> I fully expect to see a notice "This Thing may contain nuts"
 06[19:46] * Chaoticfluffy_ has it on good authority that The_Thing is not gluten-free
[19:46] <The_Thing> o_O_O
 03[19:46] * Mike5 (Mike5@ has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:46] <Chaoticfluffy_> and is made on equipment that also processes tree nuts
[19:47] <Peter-C> I will be back later
[19:47] <The_Thing> The balls are inert. It doesn't make a bit of difference, guys.
[19:47] <Chaoticfluffy_> inert...balls?
[19:48] <Thorncrag|w> They have medication for that you know-
 06[19:48] * Chaoticfluffy_ snort
[19:48] <The_Thing>
[19:49] <MuZemike> The balls are inert.
[19:49] <The_Thing> "It can't be... my balls are inert"
 03[19:50] * datapolitical ( has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:50] <The_Thing> "I guess I let the stress get to my balls
[19:51] <MuZemike> Ernest:
 15[19:51] * IShadowed_ (~IShadowed@wikimedia/IShadowed) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
[19:52] <DerpinLlama> Your balls are evidently popular.
 03[19:52] * Mikemoral (~Mikemoral@wikimedia/mikemoral) has joined #wikipedia-en
[19:53] <The_Thing> "Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his BALLS?"
 03[19:54] * Falcorian (~Alexander@wikipedia/Falcorian) has joined #wikipedia-en
 03[19:54] * MuZemike is now known as MuZemike|away
 03[19:56] * Ottava ( has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[19:56] * Narodnik (~Severin@wikipedia/Skomorokh) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds )
[20:01] <Ottava> meow
 06[20:01] * IDoH meows at Ottava
 06[20:01] * Peter-C walks in
 15[20:02] * foks (~jos@wikipedia/fox) Quit (Quit: Connection mauled by savage natives )
 06[20:02] * Chaoticfluffy_ wanders off to offcially start her Christmas music season
 06[20:02] * Peter-C shoots Ottava and IDoH
[20:02] <Peter-C> Damn cats on my lawn
[20:02] <Ottava> nyu
[20:03] <IDoH> lol
[20:04] <IDoH> Peter-C: You walked *in*. We're in your house, not your lawn. :-P
[20:04] <DerpinLlama> meh
[20:04] <DerpinLlama> i cant find anything helpful to do
 03[20:04] * MuZemike|away is now known as MuZemike
 06[20:04] * Peter-C looks at Chaoticfluffy_
[20:05] <Peter-C> GCS less then 8? You should try to intubate!
[20:05] <Chaoticfluffy_> not in NJ, you shouldn
[20:05] <Chaoticfluffy_> 't
[20:05] <Chaoticfluffy_> unless you like to be sued
[20:05] <Peter-C> It is what some paramedics say
[20:06] <Chaoticfluffy_> you're not a paramedic
[20:06] <Peter-C> If the GCS is less then 8 you should consider to intubate
[20:06] <MuZemike> OK, another paper to do, 1300 words to go.
[20:06] <Peter-C> I know, but I like to annoy you ^_^
[20:06] <Peter-C> MuZemike I have 15 pages to go on a 30 page business plan for school
[20:06] <Peter-C> Wanna trade?
 03[20:08] * Sosuke593 ( has joined #wikipedia-en
 15[20:08] * guillom (~guillaume@wikimedia/guillom) Quit (Quit: Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore. )
[20:08] <MuZemike> How much do you know about [[Mohammad Reza Pahlavi]]?
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[20:09] <Chaoticfluffy_> huh, what class is he for?
[20:09] <MuZemike> American History (in the context of the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat, organized by the Americans)
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[20:12] <Ottava> sounds boring
[20:12] <Ottava> and he Americans didn't organize it, fyi
[20:12] <Ottava> that was a blown apart conspiracy theory
[20:12] <MuZemike> The British?
[20:12] <Ottava> No, the Iranians did it
[20:12] <Ottava> and only Iranians
[20:13] <MuZemike> With our help, though.
 03[20:13] * Sosuke593 ( has left #wikipedia-en
[20:13] <Ottava> no
[20:13] <Ottava> We had more of a say before hand
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[20:14] <MuZemike> It was painfully obvious neither we nor the British wanted Mossadeq in power in Iran, especially after nationalizing the oil industry.
[20:15] <Ottava> the CIA wasn't fully functional until 1960
[20:15] <Ottava> so
 15[20:15] * sonia (ca254030@wikipedia/sonia) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds )
[20:15] <MuZemike> We surely didn't want the Soviets to get the oil that was there.
[20:15] <Ottava> claims about it are bs
[20:15] <Ottava> It is one of the most shameful pages on Wikipedia
[20:16] <Ottava> pure conspiracy theory and fringe sources
[20:16] <MuZemike> For the British, that is (we didn't need the oil ourselves at that time, as we were the #1 largest oil-producing country in the world until the 70s)
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[20:17] <Ottava> The Brits didn't need it either
[20:18] <Ottava> they had the other oil fields
[20:18] <MuZemike> Where? Africa?
[20:19] <Ottava> Um, you do know they controlled the big territory to the left of Iran at the time
 03[20:20] * Topic is 'English Wikipedia: | Status: | Channel guidelines at | For a channel operator, ask in #wikimedia-ops, or say !ops followed by your request | No public logging | Write your personal appeal to our readers: '
 03[20:20] * Set by PeterSymonds!~Peter@wikimedia/PeterSymonds on Sun Nov 07 05:01:54
[20:20] #wikipedia-en url is
[20:20] #wikipedia-en created on Sun Nov 26 01:42:50 2006
 12[20:21] -ChanServ- [##Until_It_Sleeps-bots] As this is an anti-vandalism related channel, discussions usually lean towards that subject area, though off-topic discussions are allowed, but ##The_Thing is the preferred place for them. Please don't flood this channel, or play with the bots excessively unless you're sure you know what you're doing or they are your bots. Thank you.
 12[20:21] -ChanServ- [#defocus] Hi all, and welcome to #defocus. Please see Please be patient and you will be voiced. Do not ask for voice, it will be given to you soon. Thanks!
 12[20:21] -ChanServ- [#freenode] Welcome to #freenode. All network staff are voiced in here, but may not always be around - type /stats p to get a list of on call staff. Others may be hiding so do feel free to ping and /msg us at will! Also please read the channel guidelines at - thanks.
 12[20:21] -ChanServ- [#wikimedia-qc] Bienvenue sur le canal de l'茅ventuel chapitre qu茅b茅cois de Wikim茅dia! N'h茅sitez pas 脿 vous tirer une b没che et 脿 jaser avec vos 芦 chums 禄.
[20:21] <Ottava> and the Shah was still ruler of Iran, so it wasn't a "coup" in any regard
[20:22] <Ottava> the whole history there has been bullshitted by propagandists
[20:22] <Ottava> The CIA has done very, very little
[20:22] <Ottava> and has been highly ineffective
 12[20:22] -ChanServ- [#wikipedia-fr] Canal en UTF-8. La diffusion publique de journaux de ce canal est interdite. Merci de lire et de contribuer 脿 la bonne humeur du canal. Bonne journ茅e !
 12[20:22] -ChanServ- [##windows] ##windows watchwords: polite, reasonable, constructive. Guidelines:
 15[20:23] * RandomTime (~RT@unaffiliated/randomtime) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds )
 08[20:23] <derp> hmm
 08[20:23] <derp> How do i classify a recent death by shooting?
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 08[20:23] <derp> killiondude gtfo
[20:24] <Thorncrag|w> that won't work
 08[20:24] <derp> yeah
 08[20:24] <derp> brb
 08[20:24] <derp> cheating on the Wii.
[20:24] <Ottava> MuZemike, look at the way they treat Iranian's on the matter
 12[20:24] -ChanServ- You have been devoiced on #wikipedia-en by killiondude
 03[20:24] * ChanServ sets mode: -v derp
[20:25] <Ottava> This is despite the fact that Kashani came out against Mosaddegh by mid-1953 and "told a foreign correspondent that Mosaddegh had fallen because he had forgotten that the shah enjoyed extensive popular support."[120] A
[20:25] <Ottava>  month later, Kashani "went even further and declared that Mosaddegh deserved to be executed because he had committed the ultimate offense: rebelling against the shah, 'betraying' the country, and repeatedly violating the sacred law."[121]
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[20:25] <Ottava> The Ayatollah was publicly condemning Mosaddegh before he was removed
[20:25] <Ottava> Only anti-"Imperialist"/ CIA Conspiracy nuts have a say in that page
[20:25] <Ottava> it is disgraceful
[20:26] <Ottava> the CIA had no power and wasnt able to do anything
[20:26] <The_Thing> just nuke Iran
[20:26] <The_Thing> nuke North Korea
[20:26] <Ottava> what happened was the religious leaders turned against a person they felt was acting inappropriately
[20:26] <Ottava> and then did the same with the Shah
[20:26] <The_Thing> problems solved
[20:26] <Ottava> the CIA is unable to puppet the Ayatollahs
[20:26] <Ottava> that is rather obvious
[20:27] <Mike5> hey does anyone know a good site with games based on identifying countries on blank maps
 03[20:28] * Mikemoral is now known as Mikemoral|afk
[20:29] <MuZemike>
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[20:31] <Peter-C> Guys I need a muzzel
[20:35] <The_Thing> Yes, you do.
 06[20:35] * The_Thing muzzles Peter-C.
 06[20:35] * Chaoticfluffy_ cackles
[20:35] <Chaoticfluffy_> stop being funny! that wasn't fair!
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 06[20:37] * Peter-C attemts to bite people
[20:37] <Peter-C> god damn it
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[20:48] <Earwig> Peter-C: You have... FAILED!
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[20:57] <BarkingFish> Any admins still alive? There's an AFD which was withdrawn 15 hours ago, and people are still commenting on it. Can someone please close it? I'd do it myself, but I commented on it.
[20:57] <BarkingFish>
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[20:59] <TheCavalry> BarkingFish: Lots of users have voted delete and keep, dont we need them to withdraw also?
[20:59] <BarkingFish> no
[20:59] <BarkingFish> If the AFD nomination is withdrawn, the AFD is invalid, regardless of who wanted what
[21:00] <BarkingFish> It simply gets closed as Nomination Withdrawn
[21:00] <The_Thing> Lol...
 06[21:00] * The_Thing pets TheCavalry
[21:00] <BarkingFish> morning The_Thing :)
 06[21:01] * BarkingFish wonders why he is still awake at this ungodly hour of the night/morning
[21:01] <Peter-C> ^_^
[21:02] <BarkingFish> nice
[21:02] <BarkingFish> you have a spotless block record
[21:02] <The_Thing> Well... at least I'm an administrator somewhere...
[21:02] <Ottava> spotless records are problematic
[21:02] <The_Thing> ...on one of my school's old servers. xD
[21:02] <Ottava> it means you never bothered to stick up for what is right
[21:03] <The_Thing> part of a Windows 2008 Network Infrastructure configuration class
 15[21:03] * TuxFighter ( Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds )
[21:03] <Peter-C> O-o
[21:03] <The_Thing> And I'm, like, the first person to power on the server in 2 years
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[21:05] <BarkingFish> Ottava, it might also simply mean that the user never behaved like a complete prick and went all out to get themselves blocked :)
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[21:06] <Ottava> BarkingFish - blocks aren't always justified
[21:06] <Ottava> there are enough abusive admin out there that even good people are blocked
[21:06] <FT2> But in the community;'s eyes, the vast majority of those not overturned, are
[21:07] <FT2> and the community's criteria may not match yourssome peoples - yours or some users, or the blocked user,. But may still be the community's view insofar as it's made one clear.
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[21:07] <The_Thing> Ottava: Did you see my block? :P
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[21:09] <The_Thing> My alternate account got blocked for edits that I made several days before the block... The crime? Tagging pages with TW that included attacks in the page names.
 03[21:10] * Guest34739 ( has joined #wikipedia-en
 08[21:10] Clones detected from 8 Guest34739 Ottava
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[21:10] <Guest34739> block logs are used purely for political games in order for non writers to bully and dominate those who deserve to be on top based on productivity
[21:10] <The_Thing> Which where then repeated in the edit summaries of the notifications that Twinkle made to the creators
[21:11] <The_Thing> Guest34739: And, who might you be?
 15[21:11] * Ottava ( Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds )
[21:11] <DerpinLlama> Supposedly he's a guest.
 03[21:11] * Guest34739 is now known as Ottava
[21:11] <FT2> ottava - disconnected
[21:11] <Ottava> The Thing, you dont know my IP by now?
[21:11] <Ottava> o.O
[21:11] <The_Thing> Ottava: I assume you didn't get any of my messages
[21:12] <Ottava> My internet kicked out following FT2 saying "But in the community's eyes"
[21:12] <The_Thing> oh
[21:12] <The_Thing> Ottava: Did you see my block? :P
[21:12] <The_Thing> My alternate account got blocked for edits that I made several days before the block... The crime? Tagging pages with TW that included attacks in the page names.
[21:12] <The_Thing> Which where then repeated in the edit summaries of the notifications that Twinkle made to the creators
[21:12] <FT2> <FT2> But in the community;'s eyes, the vast majority of those not overturned, are
[21:12] <FT2> <FT2> and the community's criteria may not match yours or some users, or the blocked user,. But may still be the community's view insofar as it's made one clear.
[21:12] <Ottava> The Thing - so you did nothing wrong
[21:12] <FT2> (with typo corrected)
[21:12] <Ottava> The community overturned my last three blocks yet ArbCom ignored that in their findings
[21:13] <The_Thing> For all intents and purposes, yes
[21:13] <Ottava> so the community's opinion matters little
[21:13] <Ottava> "22:39, 5 September 2009 Chillum (talk | contribs) unblocked "Ottava Rima (talk | contribs)" ? (Gwen, sorry but consensus seems against this block, Ottava please don't take this as permission for future disruption)"
[21:14] <Ottava> "# 21:09, 9 October 2009 GrahamColm (talk | contribs) unblocked "Ottava Rima (talk | contribs)" ? (No consensus on this) "
[21:14] <Ottava> Not at all in the findings against me
[21:14] <Dragonfly6-7> [[User:Whoop whoop pull up/Wikipedia III: Revenge of Jimbo]] - most amusing
[21:14] <Ottava>
[21:14] <Ottava> "Ottava Rima's editorship has been punctuated by repeated disputes and blocks [5], with a lengthy gap in the latter between July 2008 and September 2009."
[21:14] <Ottava> here was no "lengthy gap"
[21:14] <FT2> The unblock by chillum seems to confirm there was disruption. Just not consensus to block for it. Is that correct?
[21:14] <Ottava> those blocks were all overturned
[21:14] <Ottava> the unblock by Chillum was him admitting he was wrong
[21:14] <FT2> But seriously
[21:15] <The_Thing> And you wanna know his block summary?
[21:15] <The_Thing> * 15:55, November 3, 2010 Jehochman (talk | contribs) unblocked "The sock that should not be (talk | contribs)" ? (Disruption was unintentional, and will not be repeated)
[21:15] <The_Thing> * 15:05, November 3, 2010 Jehochman (talk | contribs) changed block settings for The sock that should not be (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, autoblock disabled) ? (Disruptive editing: flooding watchlist with inappropriate messages)
[21:15] <The_Thing> * 14:58, November 3, 2010 Jehochman (talk | contribs) blocked The sock that should not be (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ? (Disruptive editing: flooding watchlist with inappropriate messages)
[21:15] <Ottava> Jehochman has a history of jumping the gun
[21:15] <The_Thing> Flooding watchlists my ass...
[21:15] <FT2> I would be interested if, instead of speculation, someone took the first 100 blocks in a random day (tomorrow?) and analyzed them for whether or not they seemed justified and why
[21:15] <FT2> it would be useful to base a debate on evidence.
[21:15] <Chzz> FT2   I'd like to see that for CSD too :p
[21:16] <Ottava> That wouldnt be fair, FT2, as many are IPs being blocked for spamming "penis"
[21:16] <FT2> then those are valid blocks, and not "purely political" no?
[21:16] <FT2> which kind should it be narrowed down to?
[21:16] <Ottava> They wouldnt county as blocks
[21:16] <FT2> they are in the block lofg
[21:16] <Ottava> The blocks of regular users
[21:16] <FT2> so they are blocks?
[21:16] <FT2> how regular?
[21:16] <The_Thing> and Jehochman said my block was just to get my attention
[21:16] <Ottava> Look at the Fat Man's block log
[21:16] <FT2> autoconfirmed or more?
[21:16] <The_Thing> I mean, what the fuck?... post a message on my talk page to get my attention
[21:16] <Ottava> You could narrow it down to content editors
 12[21:17] -ChanServ- [#freenode] Welcome to #freenode. All network staff are voiced in here, but may not always be around - type /stats p to get a list of on call staff. Others may be hiding so do feel free to ping and /msg us at will! Also please read the channel guidelines at - thanks.
 12[21:17] -ChanServ- [#videolan] Welcome to #videolan. Please ask your question if you want an answer. Don't forget to check, and
 12[21:17] -ChanServ- [##Until_It_Sleeps-bots] As this is an anti-vandalism related channel, discussions usually lean towards that subject area, though off-topic discussions are allowed, but ##The_Thing is the preferred place for them. Please don't flood this channel, or play with the bots excessively unless you're sure you know what you're doing or they are your bots. Thank you.
 12[21:17] -ChanServ- [#defocus] Hi all, and welcome to #defocus. Please see Please be patient and you will be voiced. Do not ask for voice, it will be given to you soon. Thanks!
 12[21:18] -ChanServ- [##windows] ##windows watchwords: polite, reasonable, constructive. Guidelines:
 03[21:18] * Topic is 'English Wikipedia: | Status: | Channel guidelines at | For a channel operator, ask in #wikimedia-ops, or say !ops followed by your request | No public logging | Write your personal appeal to our readers: '
 03[21:18] * Set by PeterSymonds!~Peter@wikimedia/PeterSymonds on Sun Nov 07 05:01:54
 12[21:18] -ChanServ- [#wikipedia-fr] Canal en UTF-8. La diffusion publique de journaux de ce canal est interdite. Merci de lire et de contribuer 脿 la bonne humeur du canal. Bonne journ茅e !
[21:18] #wikipedia-en url is
[21:18] #wikipedia-en created on Sun Nov 26 01:42:50 2006
[21:18] <Ottava> 50 or more edits in mainspace works
[21:19] <Ottava> I didnt have anything even close to 50% edits in mainspace
 12[21:19] -ChanServ- [#wikimedia-ops] Welcome to the home of the Wikimedia chanops. Questions, requests and the like can be filed here and we'll try to help. To find an operator for a particular channel, type "/quote chanserv access #channel list".
 12[21:19] -ChanServ- [#wikimedia-qc] Bienvenue sur le canal de l'茅ventuel chapitre qu茅b茅cois de Wikim茅dia! N'h茅sitez pas 脿 vous tirer une b没che et 脿 jaser avec vos 芦 chums 禄.
[21:19] <Ottava>
[21:19] <FT2> ok. So here's an experiment. If we asked someone with database access to pick us the first 50 blocks tomorrow, of users with 50 or more mainspace edits
[21:19] <Ottava> 25% article, 10% talk page
[21:19] <FT2> that would be a decent sample
 06[21:19] * Peter-C licks Soxred93
[21:19] <Dragonfly6-7> ah, h ello
[21:19] <Ottava> sounds like fun
[21:19] <FT2> how would it be decided if the blocks were "fair"
[21:19] <Ottava> Hey Ashlee
[21:19] <Ottava> oh wait
[21:19] <Ottava> ;/
[21:20] <Ottava> We could do it by popular consent and discussion in chat
[21:20] <Ottava> have someone chose to be advocate for the block and advocate against
[21:20] <Ottava> and make the arguments
[21:20] <Ottava> then have people say if they agree or not
[21:20] <Peter-C> Soxred93 - around?
[21:20] <FT2> that's likely to be as open to bias as any other self-slect group.
[21:20] <FT2> it might show why a concern exists, but could easily be biased
[21:21] <Ottava> bias will always exist
[21:21] <FT2> and would never be seen as objective
[21:21] <FT2> is there a better way
[21:21] <Ottava> but when you have more people the extremes level out
[21:21] <Ottava> look at a bell chart
[21:21] <FT2> yes
 03[21:21] * IShadowed_ is now known as IShadowed
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[21:22] <FT2> the community's supposed to do that. What if the blocks were placed in a poll, and users invited to examine the blocks and vote for each - justified/unjustified/unsure, or community clearly agreed, community clearly didnt agree, unsure
 03[21:22] * Jacnoc ( has joined #wikipedia-en
[21:22] <FT2> is there a way to test any speculation about it in an objective manner
[21:22] <Ottava> they could just remove blocks in general except for vandalism
[21:22] <Ottava> that would make too much sense
[21:22] <FT2> ok
[21:22] <Peter-C> Soxred93 I need love and attention
[21:22] <FT2> narrower, doesnt hrt
[21:22] <FT2> and vandalism is a good one
[21:23] <FT2> it has a very clear definition
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[21:23] <Netalarm> *The fiction noticeboard has been marked historical and removed from the noticeboard links*
[21:23] <FT2> and gets abused now and then (by users claiming "Vandalism" when others disagree)
[21:23] <FT2> so its a much more objective one to test
[21:23] <Ktr101> yea!
[21:23] <Ottava> There are many users that do outrageous things that arent blocked and others that do almost nothing and are blocked
[21:23] <FT2> indeed. The question is, the ones who get blocked, did they do something
[21:24] <FT2> is it clear or not they did
 15[21:24] * naohiro19 ( Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds )
[21:24] <Ottava> Moreschi posted up large copy and pastes of my religion column without approval on Wikipedia and outed me while saying I was insane because I am religious. My religion had nothing to do with the matter, nor did I ever bring it on Wiki, or give him the right to post my copyrighted work or out me
[21:24] <Ottava> no block
[21:25] <FT2> the question posed isn't "do users sometimes do things they should be blocked for, but no block happens"
[21:25] <Ottava> That is something that unquestionable results in a block
[21:25] <Ottava> there is no "uh oh, my bad"
[21:25] <Ottava> that is a bright line block
[21:25] <Ottava> and it didnt happen
[21:25] <FT2> it's more the concern you gave about "block logs are used purely for political games in order for non writers to bully and dominate those who deserve to be on top based on productivity"
[21:25] <FT2> to test that we would need to look at users who are blocked, and see if thgose are valid blocks
[21:26] <Ottava> I was blocked for asking Jimbo if Chillum saying he was on acid on his user page was acceptable
[21:26] <FT2> a simple test would be this (based on the above)
[21:26] <Ottava> those two happened around the same time
[21:26] <FT2> pick a random date in advance
[21:26] <Ottava> Jimbo even stated that Chillum's edit was inappropriate
[21:26] <Ottava> so obviously the block function wasn't being used properly
[21:27] <FT2> pick the first 50 blocks on or after that day (UTC) per the block log, which were done to users with 50+ mainspace edits, 25% mainspace edits and 10% article talk edits, for supposed "vandalism"
[21:27] <FT2> look at the evidence and see if they did vandalize
[21:27] <Ottava> Lets do the first 50 blocks of today
[21:27] <FT2> would that work?
[21:27] <FT2> that's what we have so far
[21:27] <Ottava> Just find someone with toolserv access
[21:28] <Ottava> But you have to admit, when you were blocked that was political
[21:28] <FT2> not sure there will be 50 such blocks today
[21:28] <Ottava> and I even pointed that out when I responded to the block of you
[21:28] <FT2> pick the first 50 in (say) October
[21:28] <FT2> that way it's guaranteed
[21:28] <FT2> yes. But did you notice what happened
[21:28] <FT2> I didnt say a word
[21:29] <FT2> and the community saw that and fixed it, and dealt wqith the political blocker
[21:29] <Ottava> Not really
[21:29] <FT2> I didnt have to get upset or take it personally or anything
[21:29] <Ottava> The community turned against you
[21:29] <Ottava> I was in the minority defending you
[21:30] <Chzz> WoW
 06[21:30] * Chaoticfluffy_ feels like she ought to have popped some popcorn in preparation for this conversation
[21:30] <Ottava> Chzz - World of Wiki
[21:30] <Chzz> mmm, that's what I mean
[21:30] <Chzz> it's really really REALLY not worth bothering about
[21:31] <Chzz> well, if you wanna play, sure, go for it
[21:31] <Chzz> otherwise though; meh; WP:FUCK and move along, etc
[21:31] <Ottava> Chzz - it gets in the way of people just wanting to work on articles
[21:31] <MuZemike> Ottava, what about Giano again? 9_9
[21:31] <Ottava> Look at Malleus, he is chased after all the time
[21:31] <Ottava> Giano chases after people so he isn't defendable
[21:31] <Chzz> sure
[21:32] <Chzz> g'luck to 'em
[21:32] <Chzz> but if you don't take the bait, and just wander off, you're untouchable
[21:32] <MuZemike> Wiki-ambulance chasers
[21:32] <Ottava> Chzz - look at the Persian Empire page. Folantin turned it into a redirect 7 times, and three RfCs said that it was wrong to do
[21:32] <FT2> I didn't take it personally or comment. The community was in an ugly mood and that was for many reasons.
[21:32] <Ottava> you can't just wander off from that
[21:33] <Ottava> Trolls go after content and destroy a lot of it
[21:33] <Chzz> Ottava so, fuck it; go back to it in about 5 years or so, fix it later. Who cares?
[21:33] <Ottava> 5 years?
[21:33] <Ottava> Dude
[21:33] <Chzz> yeah
[21:33] <Ottava> 5 years means 5 years of kids not having it
[21:33] <Chzz> and trolls do not destroy content
[21:33] <Ottava> That doesnt fly
[21:33] <Chzz> it's in the history
[21:33] <Ottava> average readers dont look in histories
[21:33] <Ottava> >.<
[21:34] <Ottava> especially in redirects
 15[21:34] * Jacnoc ( Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
[21:34] <Ottava> Many of my articles are used by students in college
[21:34] <FT2> Ottava.  In part that block was for blocking one of the blocker's close wiki-friends for 31 hours for some kind of disruption earlier in the year.
[21:34] <FT2> I knew it, so did everyone.
[21:34] <Ottava> if they are destroyed or removed, that is years of kids not having it
[21:34] <FT2> That's why it didn't matter.
 03[21:34] * Jacnoc ( has joined #wikipedia-en
[21:34] <FT2> but anyhow
[21:34] <Chzz> doesn't matter a damn, in the scale of things
[21:34] <Ottava> FT2 - it did matter as politics do have power
[21:34] <Chzz> but yeah
[21:34] <Chzz> meh
[21:34] <Ottava> Chzz - with that philosophy Wiki doesnt matter as we all die
[21:34] <Ottava> Stop being a nihilist
[21:34] <FT2> Ottava - I don't do politics. Time tends to show what's so and what isn't.
[21:34] <Chzz> nah, fuck it
[21:35] <Chzz> there are things in this world that are awful
[21:35] <Ottava> Chzz - never become an artist
[21:35] <Chzz> live with it
[21:35] <FT2> it doesn't take gaming to prove someone's right or wrong.
[21:35] <Chzz> you can't fix 'em all; sure, try to fix some
[21:35] <FT2> just honesty
[21:35] <Ottava> My live is based around making things better, not accepting the flaws
[21:35] <Chzz> but don't get hung up on just one of 'em
[21:35] <Ottava> life*
[21:35] <Chzz> there are other things worth worrying about, besides one minor bit of crap on Wikipedia
[21:35] <Ottava> Chzz, why are you even here then?
[21:36] <Ottava> If you have that view, you'd do better not even bothering with Wiki
[21:36] <Chzz> mostly, to say 'hi' to ppl wot I know. Also, 'coz I might write some stuff, one day, if I feel like it. And to check on messages; I do kinda check back on things; I have the old-fashioned sense about wanting to reply to people
[21:37] <Chzz> and, because every so often, I help people make Wikipedia a little bit better
[21:37] <Chzz> and as long as it's heading generally the right way - albeit via a very circuitous route - that's groovy
[21:37] <OlEnglish> you've done a lot of good chzz
[21:37] <OlEnglish> for wikipedia
[21:38] <Chzz> it's taken me a hell of a long time to realise that it really REALLY doesn't matter
[21:38] <Chzz> I mean - 'SysOp' etc
 15[21:38] * Willking1979 (williamcar@wikipedia/willking1979) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
[21:38] <Chzz> yes, it'd be handy; yes, it'd save time
[21:38] <Chzz> but it ain't worth the aggro
[21:38] <Ottava> Chzz, then you are a myspacer editor
 06[21:38] * Peter-C tosses sausages at Chzz
[21:38] <OlEnglish> yeah it's not all it's cracked up to be
[21:39] <Chzz> I'm just gonna get down the library, write some articles, and submit them when they're GA/FA-ish
[21:39] <Ottava> Im an Academic
[21:39] <Ottava> my reasons are far different
[21:39] <Ottava> I dont see this as a place to make friends and play games
[21:39] <Peter-C> Chzz - wanna indulge in a non sexual sausagefest?
[21:39] <Chaoticfluffy_> ...
[21:39] <Ottava> Chaoticfluffy, who are you on wiki?
[21:40] <Chzz> Ottava,  why are you even here then?
[21:40] <Peter-C> Chaoticfluffy_ is Chaoticfluffy
 06[21:40] * Chaoticfluffy_ wonders why Ottava suddenly wants to know
[21:40] <Peter-C> Her human name is Karen :O
[21:40] <Ottava> Chzz - to whine and complain until others fix articles
[21:40] <Chaoticfluffy_> that's assuming you believe him when he says I'm human
[21:40] <Ottava> Because Im unable to
[21:40] <Ottava> Ive never seen the name Chaoticfluffy on Wiki
[21:40] <Chaoticfluffy_> that's unfortunate
 15[21:41] * BarkingFish (~thor@wikipedia/BarkingFish) Quit (Quit: Leaving )
[21:41] <Ottava> Want to copyedit Kubla Khan or Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard?
 06[21:41] * Chaoticfluffy_ is, generally speaking, not a big name. Specificially speaking too, for that matter.
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[21:42] <Chaoticfluffy_> probably not. I make a point of not wandering into certain people's articles
[21:42] <Chaoticfluffy_> Malleus is one
[21:43] <Chzz> mmm
[21:43] <Ottava> Malleus is a good guy
[21:43] <Ottava> and no one is currently working on them
[21:43] <Ottava> mostly because they were mine
[21:43] <Chzz> yes, well; I tried
[21:43] <Ottava> Chzz, you gave up :P
[21:43] <Chzz> people then accused me of various things, so, meh
[21:43] <Chaoticfluffy_> Malleus is rather more prone to screaminess than I like my coeditors to be
[21:43] <Chzz> I'll maybe look at 'em in a couple of years from now
[21:44] <Ottava> I have multiple FAs without a problem with him
[21:44] <Ottava> and Im the guy who isnt able to work with others
[21:44] <Ottava> o.O
[21:46] <Ottava> Anyway, they are damn good pages
[21:46] <Ottava> and are close to FA status
 15[21:46] * Crimedog (kvirc@wikipedia/Ron-Ritzman) Quit (Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3900, sources date: 20100125, built on: 2010-01-27 11:44:30 UTC )
[21:46] <Chzz> I   'gave up'   because some folks accused me of editing on behalf of a banned user.   I wasn't, but, it is simply not worth arguing about.   There are 3m more articles that need work, so, fuck it;  best if I just work on some of those for a bit.   I do kinda like that specific poem, so I've taken a note, and in a year or two, I might look at that article again/
 15[21:47] * Jacnoc ( Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
 06[21:47] * Peter-C licks Ottava
[21:48] <Ottava> ew
[21:48] <Ottava> Chzz, who cares if you are editing on behalf of a banned user
[21:48] <Ottava> IAR says to do whatever it takes to improve the pedia
[21:48] <Chzz> Peter-C   Can you please stop with all the licking shite? please?  ''s a bit boring, to be honest.
[21:49] <Chzz> Ottava never said I *cared*
[21:49] <Ottava> would geting that page to FAC improve the pedia?
[21:49] <Ottava> yes
[21:49] <Chzz> so would improving over 9000 other pages
[21:49] <Chzz> which is easier?
[21:49] <Ottava> So work on that page
 06[21:49] * Peter-C waddles all over Chzz
[21:49] <Ottava> those two I listed are in the top 10 for English poems
[21:49] <Ottava> They are uber important
[21:50] <Chzz> everything is fucking 眉ber-important to someone
[21:50] <Ottava> Chzz
[21:50] <Chzz> And yes, I agree w/ you about those specific poems
[21:50] <Ottava> These are in the top 10 poems
[21:50] <Ottava> not pokemon
[21:50] <Chzz> but ffs, there are lots and lots of other top things
[21:50] <Ottava> Literature is deficient
 08[21:50] * derp slaps Ottava with a igfrhdshgsfgjhsiogh
[21:50] <Ottava> yet every school kid studies it
 08[21:51] <derp> Pok茅mon!
[21:51] <Chzz> mmm, ok, so - what about the other 9 of those top-10?
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[21:51] <Chzz> how many are FA?
[21:51] <Peter-C> NEED MOAR POKEMON!
 06[21:51] * Peter-C dens GorillaWarfare to go make pokemon articles
[21:51] <Peter-C> *sends
[21:51] <Ottava> Chzz - Paradise Lost isn't an FA
[21:51] <Ottava> too much work for you to do
[21:51] <Chzz> how many are FA?
[21:51] <Ottava> Ode on a Grecian Urn is an FA
[21:51] <GorillaWarfare> Goodness, that's quite the advert on WP
[21:51] <Chaoticfluffy_> as Chzz says, there many things which are top-10 something and need help. Most of those do not have editorship that is known to be fighty. I, myself, see little reason to pick a top-10-something where i'm likely to be making people unhappy by existing
[21:51] <Ottava> Im checking
 06[21:52] * Peter-C steals GorillaWarfare's gun
[21:52] <GorillaWarfare> Hello Peter
[21:52] <Chzz> if "IF" is in there, well, meh
[21:52] <Ottava> Chaoticfluffy - Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard didn't even have a page before I wrote it
[21:52] <Peter-C> Please do not wave this around, not all of us are soldiers
[21:52] <Ottava> so there is no one to fight with
[21:52] <Chzz> this is 'top 10' according to whom, BTW?
[21:52] <Ottava> Chzz - various academic liss
 06[21:52] * Peter-C places the gun in a large pile of GorillaWarfare's guns
[21:52] <Ottava> Im checking current ones right now
[21:53] <GorillaWarfare> Well at least I still have my machete.
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[21:53] <Chzz> oh, well, if it is *academic* it *must* be right?
[21:53] <Ottava>
[21:53] <Ottava> That is an interesting list
[21:53] <Ottava> Chzz, not all are the same
[21:54] <Ottava> but I am using common poems among them
[21:54] <Ottava> Kubla Khan tends to be on most lists
[21:54] <Chzz> so does 'If'
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[21:54] <Chzz> and it's still shite
 06[21:54] * Peter-C takes the machete and tranq gun from GorillaWarfare also
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[21:54] <GorillaWarfare> Hmph.
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 06[21:55] * Chaoticfluffy_ does not recommend stepping between a gorilla and his deadly blades
[21:55] <Chzz> In fact, I believe the BBC did a rather large-ranging poll, and 'If' won
[21:55] <Chzz> and it's *still* shite
[21:55] <Peter-C> <--- GorillaWarfare is Neo when he steps through the metal decter ^_^
[21:55] <Chzz> just happens to be on rather a lot of toilet-plaques
[21:55] <GorillaWarfare> :D I like to think so.
[21:55] <GorillaWarfare> Huge boots and all.
[21:55] <Peter-C> Boots FTW!
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[21:56] <Ottava> I don't like If nor the BBC
[21:57] <Ottava> Dulce et Decorum Est, Hollowmen, etc, are much better
[21:57] <MuZemike> Yay, 937 words to go.
[21:58] <Peter-C> o.o
 06[21:58] * Peter-C thinks he is more productive then MuZemike when it comes to essays xD
[21:58] <Peter-C> ^_^
[21:59] <GorillaWarfare> I love How it's Made
[21:59] <Ottava> someone want to finish my dissertation?
[21:59] <Peter-C> GorillaWarfare wut?
 15[21:59] * datapolitical ( Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep )
[21:59] <GorillaWarfare> The show
[22:00] <GorillaWarfare> So cool :]
[22:00] <Peter-C> Oh yea...haven't watched it in forever :P
 06[22:00] * Peter-C doesn't have cable
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[22:01] <Chzz> I did that poem at MSc, actually, Ottava :p
[22:01] <Chzz> Will thingy
[22:01] <GorillaWarfare> I'm watching on YouTube
[22:02] <Ottava> MSc?
[22:02] <Chzz> misarable bugger.
[22:02] <Peter-C> :O
[22:02] <Chzz> Master's degree English
 06[22:02] * Peter-C only uses youtube for music videos
[22:02] <Ottava> You have your Master's in English?
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[22:02] <Chzz> mmm
 15[22:02] * DerpinLlama (~Alex@unaffiliated/a1ex1) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
[22:02] <Ottava> From where?
[22:02] <Chzz> lit
[22:02] <Chzz> Manchester Uni
[22:03] <Ottava> hmm
 15[22:03] * Crimedog ( Quit (Changing host )
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[22:03] <Ottava> And why didn't you pursue a doctorate?
 15[22:03] * Willking1979 (williamcar@wikipedia/willking1979) Quit
[22:03] <Chzz> 'coz I wanted $$$
[22:03] <Ottava> I gets teh money, the bitches, and fly ass rides
[22:04] <Peter-C> O_o
 15[22:06] * Alex__ (~Alex@ Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
[22:07] <Chzz> D&D isn't an 'amazing poem' by any means; it's the early equivelent of writing a song cvalled "Fuck the police" - designed to 'shock'; there's nothing clever about it. It's simplistic; the allegories are school-boy-level; there is no substance
[22:07] <Chzz> at 11:11 tomorrow, it'll be read out; but, it's poo
[22:07] <Ottava> :(
[22:07] <Chzz> *today - eep.
[22:07] <Ottava> I think it is great but it does not deserve to be read on 11/11
[22:07] <Ottava> It is an anti war poem
[22:08] <Chzz> it's the antithesis of 11/11
[22:08] <Chzz> it's saying what a load of utter, pointless shite 'war' is, in general
[22:08] <Ottava>
[22:08] <Ottava> Now that is patriotism
[22:08] <Ottava> IF I should die, think only this of me:
[22:08] <Ottava>     That there's some corner of a foreign field
[22:08] <Ottava> That is forever England. There shall be
[22:08] <Ottava>     In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
[22:08] <Ottava> A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
[22:08] <Ottava>     Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
[22:08] <Ottava> A body of England's, breathing English air,
[22:08] <Ottava>     Washed by the rivers, blest by the suns of home.
[22:08] <Ottava> And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
[22:08] <Ottava>     A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
[22:08] <Ottava>         Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
[22:08] <Ottava> Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
[22:08] <Ottava>     And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
[22:08] <Ottava>         In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.
[22:08] <Ottava> That poem makes me want to serve the Crown
[22:08] <MuZemike> God save the Queen
[22:08] <Chzz> sure; fair enough
[22:09] <Chzz> but...well, that's just about war
[22:09] <Chzz> I mean, 11/11 is to remember
 15[22:09] * FT2 (~FT2@wikipedia/ft2) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[22:09] <Chzz> to remember just how FUCKING STUPID it all is
[22:09] <Ottava> The poem is about dying in war and how it would be a good death
[22:09] <Chzz> there is no 'good death'
[22:09] <what_if> how do I find all links to a specific page ??
[22:09] <MuZemike> Well, it *is* Veterans' Day here in the U.S.
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[22:09] <Ottava> Some corner of a foreign field is blessed with the body of a loyal Englishman!
[22:09] <Ottava> That is great tstuff!
[22:09] <MuZemike> aka. "Armistice Day" in England
[22:09] <Ottava> I believe in a good death
[22:10] <Ottava> 11/11 was when the war ended and the heroes were honored
[22:10] <MuZemike> That's what the Vikings believed in.
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[22:10] <Chzz> so, getting your legs blown off in Afghanistan 'protecting your nation' is, in some measurable way, 'better' than dying of a heart-attack after spending all your years researching sausages?
[22:10] <Chzz> why?
[22:10] <Chzz> glorification of war
[22:10] <MuZemike> And sadly, the Vikings are 3-5 and with no chance of going to the playoff.s
[22:10] <Chzz> bullshit
[22:10] <Ottava> Tolstoy's War and Peace - Napoleon stands above Bolkonsky's body as he lays there after making a charge with the Russian flag. He looks down. He says, "Now that is a good death".
[22:11] <Ottava> One of the best moments in literature
[22:11] <Ottava> Not everyone gets their legs blown off
[22:11] <Ottava> Very few people do
[22:11] <Ottava> and the prince served in Afghanistan
[22:11] <Ottava> so don't give any of that anti war bs
[22:11] <Ottava> and yes, dying after doing nothing is worthless
[22:11] <MuZemike> Chzz: Who said Veterans' Day was about glorifying the war?
[22:12] <geniice> war doesn't need  glorifying it just is
[22:12] <MuZemike> And even if so, it's human nature to engage in war.
[22:12] <Chzz> MuZemike so why do we clap at the poor bastards with legs missing?   We don't give a flying fuck about the nurses that worked 50-hour shifts to help 'em get walking again
[22:12] <Ottava> As Pink Floyd said - did you trade a walk on part in the war for the lead role in a steel cage
[22:12] <Ottava> Peace is prison
[22:12] <Ottava> It is dead end
[22:12] <Ottava> worthless
[22:12] <FT2> The more profound question is, who is qualified to judge the value of a human life that's been lived
[22:12] <Ottava> be a man, go out and serve your nation, attain something higher
[22:13] <geniice> Ottava Peace is awesome it gives you time to rearm
[22:13] <Ottava> geniice :P
[22:13] <Chzz> They actually clapped today
[22:13] <FT2> Ottava, Chzz - would you consider anyone else competent to place a value (comparative or absolute) on your life?
[22:13] <Chzz> there was a parade; in Congleton, England
[22:13] <geniice> nation have no place in war
[22:13] <FT2> thats the deeper question.
[22:13] <MuZemike> Even Mao believed in the need to fight wars.
[22:13] <Chzz> and when the legless guys went past...they actually fucking clapped
[22:13] <geniice> war should be pure tribe agaist tribe amoung consenting adults
[22:14] <Ottava> I would clap for anyone willing to go out and sacrifice for one's country
[22:14] <Ottava> they are much greater than the punks burning down buildings in London
[22:14] <FT2> anyone?
[22:14] <Ottava> because their tuition increased
[22:14] <Ottava> boooooo
[22:14] <FT2> without question?
[22:14] <Ottava> hoooooooooooooooo
[22:14] <Ottava> not your tuition!
[22:14] <Ottava> punks
[22:14] <FT2> no matter whjat they did, what their country asked of them, what type of country iot was?
[22:14] <FT2> probabloy not
[22:14] <FT2> the statement assumes a lot about country and cause, I think;.
[22:15] <geniice> the statment assumes a lot about winning
[22:15] <Ottava> A man proves himself through sacrifice, through honor, through dedication, and through service
[22:15] <MuZemike> Similar to here in the U.S., in which the Federal government partially funds some colleges who wholly reject anything military.
[22:15] <FT2> and sometimes
[22:15] <MuZemike> That makes no sense.
[22:15] <geniice> Ottava no a man proves himself through winning
[22:15] <Chzz> Ottava  does that mean you'd applaud the 9/11 bombers, who also sacrificed their lives for their country?
[22:15] <Ottava> geniice - a good lose is better than a bad win
[22:15] <Ottava> Roland, for instance
[22:15] <FT2> a man (or woman, or any other person), proves trhemselves by quiet acts that nobody notices, by things they didn't do but could have, by inner qualities.
[22:15] <FT2> don't forget those
[22:15] <Ottava> He died servicing his king and doing his duty
[22:16] <MuZemike> (Devil's advocate) Mission Accomplished
[22:16] <Ottava> Chzz - the 9/11 bombers were cowards who hid in the shadows
[22:16] <Ottava> they didn't openly serve
[22:16] <geniice> Ottava however think how much better he would have done if he had overthrown the king and got other people to die for him
[22:16] <Chzz> Ottava oh, and the army do not hide in the shadows?
[22:16] <Chzz> They don't use appropriate tactics?
[22:16] <Chzz> hah
[22:16] <FT2> were they? By their lights they sacrificed themselves for their beliefs and people. Personally I think it was a ghastly thing to do, but calling them "cowards" is mistaken.
[22:17] <Ottava> Chzz, are you trying to honestly compare the military with the 9/11 terrorists?
[22:17] <Ottava> o.O
[22:17] <geniice> Chzz well no. How many wars involve ICBMs? everything else is just messing around
 06[22:17] * MuZemike smells bacon
[22:17] <Ottava> FT2 - they didn't sacrifice themselves, they sacrificed others
[22:17] <MuZemike> Oh wait, that was just Rosie O'Donnell
[22:17] <FT2> in the eyes of their opeople - not ours - they sacrificed, they gained and brought honor, they were dedicated and they served to death.
[22:17] <Chzz> "servicing his king"   is that the droit de deigneur?  hehe
[22:17] <FT2> they meet all the criteria except one
[22:17] <Ottava> suicide bombers are not the masterminds
[22:17] <FT2> They were murderers of the innocent
[22:17] <FT2> and that wipes it all out
[22:17] <geniice> FT2 decent kill ratio but still ended up dead
[22:18] <MuZemike> Nah, it's OK to murder thousands of innocent lives.
[22:18] <geniice> MuZemike only if you win
[22:18] <MuZemike> Besides, every nation has been doing just that for ages, anyways.
[22:18] <MuZemike> And it's not just us/
[22:19] <FT2> point is, "serving" is value neutral and outward. it ignores qualities that are inward, and moral value (however that's assessed)
[22:19] <MuZemike> The communists are guilty of the same thing.
[22:19] <FT2> that's why I could not agree that mere service to the group a person happens by chance to be bourne into, is the measure of a life.
[22:19] <FT2> it can be
[22:19] <MuZemike> FT2: What are you talking about? I thought every U.S. soldier inherently supports the Bush administration.
[22:19] <Ottava> FT2 - sitting on a couch while cramming your face with potato chips and just getting fatter and fatter is a value far less than someone who does something
[22:19] <FT2> but it's not the definition of it
[22:19] <Chzz> soldiers with their legs blown off aren't fucking 'masterminds' either
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[22:20] <geniice> WTF
[22:20] <MuZemike> Despite the fact that Bush is no longer President.
[22:20] <Dragonfly6-7> - this still makes me shiver
[22:20] <Chzz> the idea of 11/11 is to remember how fucking stupid it all is. Wilf Owen...   it's all so fucking pointless
[22:20] <Chzz> they did not HAVE to die
[22:20] <Ottava> Chzz - not all soldiers with their legs blown off feel that it was in vain or wrong
[22:20] <Chzz> it was waste
[22:20] <FT2> ottava - a contrived example here... but try this
[22:20] <Ottava> so please dont assume
[22:20] <Ottava> or presume
[22:20] <Chzz> yes, it all wa
[22:20] <Chzz> s
 03[22:20] * Bejinhan (~Bejinhan@wikipedia/Bejinhan) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:20] <FT2> a person who has a pathological anger, hates people, sees them wants to kill them
[22:20] <Dragonfly6-7> Chzz - read
[22:20] <Peter-C> geniice O_o
[22:20] <MuZemike> FWIW, we (the Americans) did not lose close to as many lives as the British did.
[22:20] <Ottava> Many soldiers still feel that what they did was right
[22:21] <Ottava> So you cant push your view onto them
[22:21] <Chzz> many murderers feel that way too
 06[22:21] * MuZemike is referring to WW1
[22:21] <Chzz> so fucking what?
[22:21] <FT2> and out of sa shred of morsal decency, knowing he cant resist this and would go on a kill spree, decides to never go out, waste his life eating chips and watching TV, give up all he feels the pull for and is drawn to, all hope of success, in order to avoid that situation. Sad yes. But I'd say honorable
[22:21] <Ottava> Chzz, and those who fought against Hitler?
[22:21] <Ottava> Just murderers?
[22:21] <FT2> Unlikely but it shows, appearances could perhaps not always tell the whole story
[22:21] <Ottava> Many of my mom's uncles died in World War 2 fighting the Nazis
[22:22] <FT2> I know many disabled people whose heroics will never be told.
[22:22] <Ottava> they were just murderers who were worthless?
 03[22:22] * Chzz (Chzz@wikipedia/Chzz) has left #wikipedia-en ("[[WP:FUCK]]" )
[22:22] <Dragonfly6-7> and the band played 'waltzing matilda'
[22:23] <Ottava> I do love that song
[22:23] <Ottava> Mmm, sheep stealing
[22:23] <FT2> I would say, "don't be too sure till you walk in people's shoes"
[22:23] <geniice> heroics have little place in modern war
[22:23] <Dragonfly6-7> heroics have no place in any war
[22:23] <Dragonfly6-7> "War is inhumane. That's what the word means."
[22:23] <MuZemike> That's what a famous General or war historian said.
[22:24] <Ottava> Geniice - the Medal of Honor has been given out to many modern war soldiers
[22:24] <Ottava> Like Mogadishu
[22:24] <MuZemike> I can't remember who, though?
 15[22:24] * Betacommand (~Betacomma@unaffiliated/betacommand) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630] )
[22:24] <Ottava> the two marine snipers gave up their life protecting a downed pilot
[22:24] <MuZemike> George S. Patton comes to mind.
[22:24] <geniice> Ottava Mogadishu was a classic case of why logistics and fire support are important
[22:24] <Ottava> they were incredibly brave
[22:25] <Ottava> They fought off over 90 people before they were overrun
[22:25] <Ottava> and they just had their rifles and pistols
[22:25] <geniice> Ottava no they were  incredibly stupid. They were following orders that made no sense
[22:25] <Ottava> just to save a fellow pilot
[22:25] <Ottava> they didnt follow orders
[22:25] <Ottava> they rejected the orders
[22:25] <Ottava> they knew the pilot would be ripped apart so they went down
[22:25] <geniice> did they or did they not take part in an attack on Mogadishu without proper numbers or fire support?
[22:26] <Ottava> they didnt
[22:26] <Ottava> Mogadishu was a defense
[22:26] <MuZemike> The two Rangers who received the Medal of Honor disregarded orders and descended down to the mob to fend them off to help rescue that downed pilot.,
[22:26] <Ottava> not an offense
[22:26] <Ottava> Rangers?
[22:26] <Ottava> okay, I said marines
[22:26] <MuZemike> They were Rangers, I believe.
[22:26] <Dragonfly6-7> PPPPPP
[22:26] <Dragonfly6-7> Proper Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
[22:26] <geniice> MuZemike however if they had been sensible they would have told high command to get knotted untill they got decent supples of artillery and air support
[22:27] <MuZemike> Well, the whole mission there went to shit from the beginning.
[22:27] <Peter-C> geniice - They didn't anticipate what came out of it - they had enough fire support for what the main objective but not enough for what happened
[22:27] <Ottava> geniice - there were no decent supplies because Clinton wouldnt bring ships nearby
[22:27] <Ottava> he denied it was happening
[22:27] <FT2> somewhere there will be a hutu who got a medal for killing tutsi, and one who got no medal for refusing to serve their people and kill tutsi. Which one's a hero, the one who served or the one who stayed at home and didn't.
[22:27] <Ottava> I became a Republican because of Mogadishu, fyi
[22:27] <Peter-C> Although on a random note - all of them had bullets that were 3 bucks a pop
[22:27] <FT2> it's not as simple as heroics.
[22:28] <Dragonfly6-7> war is an unstoppable tide of hate
[22:28] <geniice> Ottava my understanding is that modern submarine launched ICBMs can be luanched from pretty much anywhere. The troops wouldn't even have been there if bush sr had had any guts
[22:29] <Ottava> geniice - ICBMs cant pinpoint target a city filled with drugged out gun totting thugs
[22:29] <Ottava> too much collateral damage
[22:29] <Submarine> geniice, Where do you propose launching ICBMs?
[22:29] <MuZemike> Sergeant First Class [[Randy Shughart]] and Master Sergeant [[Gary Gordon]] posthumously received the Medal of Honor for their efforts in the Battle of Mogadishu in saving a downed Black Hawk pilot.
[22:29] <Ottava> look a the missle mess in the Balkans
[22:29] <geniice> Ottava  "too much collateral damage"? This is war
[22:29] <Ottava> geniice - the UN had a base in the city
[22:30] <geniice> is there a shortage of UN bases?
 03[22:30] * la_pianista (~chatzilla@wikipedia/La-Pianista) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:30] <Ottava> geniice - you dont kill your own people
[22:30] <Ottava> that doesnt tend to help morale
[22:30] <geniice> part of the glory of war is that you don't mess around. The inocent bystander of my enermy is my enermy
[22:30] <MuZemike> Why? The communists did.
[22:31] <Cyrius> glory? pfft.
[22:31] <geniice> Cyrius you are suggesting that multinational nuclear exchanges are not glourious?
[22:31] <Dragonfly6-7> Communism is a very nice idea. It just doesn't work.
[22:31] <Cyrius> yes, I am suggesting that they are not
[22:31] <la_pianista> I left earlier and the talk was commies.
[22:31] <MuZemike> But it's such a great idea that it *must* work!
[22:31] <la_pianista> I'm back, and it's still commies.
[22:32] <Ottava> la_pianista, it was about war heroes
 03[22:32] * naohiro19 ( has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:32] <Peter-C> OMG! la_pianista!!!!
 06[22:33] * Peter-C waddles with excitement
[22:33] <la_pianista> OMG! Four exclamation points!
[22:33] <Peter-C> !!!!!
[22:33] <FT2> Ottava - you don't. But your idea of war may be rather "Nice" and western. Marquis of queensbury rules.
[22:33] <Submarine> geniice, You are being pusillanimous.
[22:33] <la_pianista> In other news, the prof has made one more off-color comment.
[22:33] <FT2> Most countries even now, war is a lot more directr
[22:33] <la_pianista> "'s suave and elegant. Just like you."
[22:33] <FT2> kill, disable, media, and no limits
[22:33] <Peter-C> :O
[22:33] <FT2> it ws that way in the past in most countries if not all.
[22:33] <Peter-C> la_pianista he is gonna try to sex you up :O
[22:33] <la_pianista> Going to>?
[22:34] <la_pianista> Already is.
[22:34] <geniice> Submarine I'm applying reducto absurdium to Ottava's position
[22:34] <FT2> we sit in a country that's privilkeged for that not to be the case so much. But best remember it is how many do see it.
[22:34] <Dragonfly6-7> geniice, please put Ottava on /ignore.
[22:34] <Submarine> geniice, Why not nuke both Mecca and Jerusalem?
 03[22:35] * zscout370 (~zscout370@wikipedia/Zscout370) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:35] <geniice> Submarine because that would descriminate in favor rome and mediena
 03[22:35] * [Wordsmith] (~anthony@Wikimedia/The-Wordsmith) has joined #wikipedia-en
 03[22:35] * barts1a (~barts1a@wikipedia/barts1a) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:35] <[Wordsmith]> ugh, fundraising banners
[22:36] <Ottava> I see war as violent and bloody, FT2
[22:36] <Ottava> you keep forgetting that I am Prussian
 06[22:36] * la_pianista hums, "We All Live in a Yellow Submarine"
[22:36] <barts1a> people have to make money somehow [Wordsmith]
[22:36] <Ottava> my people weren't the nicest of warriors
[22:36] <[Wordsmith]> I maintain my opinion that *nobody* wants Jimbo Wales staring at them while they browse Wikipedia
[22:36] <geniice> probably
[22:36] <[Wordsmith]> go away Jimbo, stop being on my screen
[22:36] <geniice>
[22:36] <Ottava> Hell, my Burgundian ancestors were nasty chaps when it came to battle
[22:36] <geniice> remeber guys when you set fire to the protest sign you are meant to put it down
[22:37] <barts1a> yeah... holding a flaming object can be detrimental to your well-being
[22:37] <Ottava> I am disgusted that "peace activists" are the ones burning down and destroying civilian buildings
[22:38] <geniice> also they need to work on the rioting:
[22:38] <geniice>
[22:38] <barts1a> and "Peaceful" protests always manage to turn violent
[22:38] <barts1a> it's all because of one idiot and crowd mentality
[22:38] <geniice> barts1a nah most of the union ones are pretty boring
[22:39] <geniice> in fact most protests are peaceful they just don't get reproted
[22:39] <FT2> Want a topical question. Try this for ethics. The war on terror has cost (we're told) $1 trillion. A thousand billion. I don't know what that includes or how accurate it is, but okay. Suppose we had gone to those countries and said "we'll give your country free and gratis, $1 bn now, and $2 billion each and every month in the next 20 years that there is peace, split between all major
[22:39] <FT2> factions so all benefit, and the condition is that all factions get it, or none do."  And suppose by a miracle, we had gained peace by doing so. Would that have been erthical and valid as an approach?
[22:40] <FT2> Just curious.
[22:40] <Ottava> Universal Health Care costs more than the war on terror
[22:40] <Ottava> that is scary
[22:40] <Ottava> nukes, stealth fighters, etc
[22:40] <barts1a> it's only the ones where one idiot manages to lead a crowd of protestors into violent behavour like a pack of sheep into a pen that get reported on... usually
[22:40] <Ottava> all less expensive than idiots wanting useless pills
[22:40] <Submarine> FT2, King Henry IV of France, when he wanted to conquer territory, before launching into a costly war, tended to try to bribe leaders into submission.
[22:41] <barts1a> Ottavia: it would cost a lot less if they could hurry up and develop that Nanosuit like in Crysis!
[22:41] <Ottava> omg yes barts1a
[22:41] <Ottava> Im still waiting for Gundams
[22:41] <Submarine> FT2, This way, and also by winning battles, he put an end to the Wars of Religion.
[22:42] <FT2> so it's worked in the past?
[22:42] <geniice> barts1a not even a pack. If you look at the pics of a violent protest look for the one where they got the camera anges wrong and showed that it was acutaly a tiny group sorounded by camera
[22:42] <geniice> s
[22:42] <geniice> FT2 err yes afganistan 2001
[22:43] <geniice> FT2 heck for 1 trillion you don't even need to bribe them into being peaceful. you just make them too rich to want to fight
[22:43] <Ottava> geniice, you are never too rich to want to fight
[22:43] <Submarine> FT2, The idea is to bribe the leaders into retirement.
[22:43] <barts1a> usually they will end up nuking us with our money instead of calling a truce
[22:43] <geniice> Submarine doesn't work these days there are always more leaders
[22:44] <geniice> barts1a why spend money on nukes when you can spend it on effeminate boys?
[22:44] <barts1a> or on healthcare
[22:44] <Submarine> geniice, Henry IV, once the local leaders were bribed into retirement, established his own leadership, of course. :-)
[22:46] <geniice> remeber best to stick to one protest at a time
[22:46] <geniice> wait what?
[22:47] <FT2> It's not a strictly valid comparison. The money spent in the war on terror largely circulates in the same economy - the US govt pays US soldiers, US military suppliers, US oil companies for fuel, etc.
[22:47] <FT2> Paying a different country is a straight loss
[22:47] <FT2> s9o it's not strictly comparable
 15[22:47] * Cyrius ( Quit (Quit: Where are we going, and what's with the handbasket? )
[22:47] <geniice> students can afford better cameras than I can
[22:48] <geniice> FT2 not really. Where do you think they are going to buy the stuff from (okey germany but some of it will be from the US)
 03[22:48] * Daedalus969 (~someone@wikipedia/Daedalus969) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:49] <Ktr101> geniice, who took those?
[22:49] <barts1a> that's not a camera... ( ) *THAT'S* a camera
[22:49] <geniice> Ktr101 dunno. That ones if from the US anyway
[22:49] <Ktr101> ah
 06[22:51] * Ottava yawns
 06[22:51] * la_pianista yawns also
 15[22:51] * Ottava ( Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[22:51] <geniice> barts1a no this is a camera
 08[22:52] * derp huggles la_pianista tightly.
 06[22:52] * la_pianista huggles derp more tightly
 08[22:52] * derp huggles la_pianista more tightly
[22:52] <la_pianista> o.o
 06[22:52] * la_pianista squeezes derp as tightly as possible
 08[22:52] * derp squeezes la_pianista as tightly as possible
 11[22:52] * Unloaded script 'reply.mrc'
 06[22:52] * la_pianista disembowels derp
 08[22:52] * derp splooges on la_pianista
[22:52] <la_pianista> ^^
 06[22:53] * la_pianista calls on her minions to clean up the mess
 15[22:53] * Kvant (hh@unaffiliated/kvant) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds )
 08[22:53] <derp> Splunge is for Splunge
 06[22:53] * Ktr101 runs over and cleans up derp
[22:53] <la_pianista> Thanks minion.
 06[22:53] * Ktr101 scurries away, into the dark corner from whence he came
 15[22:54] * Suiseiseki (~desu@wikipedia/Antonio-Lopez) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
 06[22:54] * barts1a wonders what just happened and gets some popcorn
 06[22:54] * Ktr101 returns, throws a sack over la_pianista, and throws her into the river
 06[22:54] * Ktr101 wins!
 06[22:54] * la_pianista yawns underwater
 03[22:54] * Suiseiseki (~desu@wikipedia/Antonio-Lopez) has joined #wikipedia-en
 08[22:54] <derp> you forgot to put her feet in cement
 08[22:54] <derp> Suiseiseki!
 06[22:54] * Ktr101 forgot la_pianista has gills
 08[22:54] <derp> desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu 
 03[22:55] * Dalton (~~@warzone2100/moderator/Dalton) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[22:55] * Ktr101 jumps in, ties her to cinderblocks, and crawls back out again
 08[22:56] <derp> they're foam cinderblocks!
 06[22:56] * la_pianista gurgles, "Obviously."
 06[22:56] * barts1a facepalms
 08[22:57] <derp> do it again fast
 03[22:57] * Kvant (hh@unaffiliated/kvant) has joined #wikipedia-en
 06[22:58] * Ktr101 fires a howitzer into the river
[22:58] <Suiseiseki> crud no
 08[22:58] <derp> hard and fast
[22:58] <Suiseiseki> I held the key to long
[22:58] <la_pianista> And long.
[22:58] <Suiseiseki> going back to bed
[22:58] <la_pianista> o/
 08[22:58] <derp> longcat is looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong
 03[22:59] * was_a_bee (~was_a_bee@wikipedia/was-a-bee) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:59] <la_pianista> Question: Do any of you guys hear fuzzy background noise?
 08[22:59] <derp> dunno
 08[22:59] <derp> <== deaf
 03[22:59] * Ottava ( has joined #wikipedia-en
 03[23:00] * was_a_bee (~was_a_bee@wikipedia/was-a-bee) has left #wikipedia-en
[23:00] <la_pianista> :o
 08[23:00] <derp> Ottava did it
 06[23:00] * la_pianista pat pats derp fondly
 03[23:00] * Earwig is now known as Earwig|sleep
 06[23:00] * la_pianista glares at Ottava evilly
[23:00] <Ottava> I was born deaf
 08[23:00] <derp> la_pianista, more hard of hearing
[23:01] <Ktr101> i think they mean at the beginning of the piece
 06[23:01] * la_pianista mumbles a semi-PG-13-statement about it not being the only thing about derp that's hard
[23:01] <barts1a> geniice: Cameras don't get much better than this:
[23:01] <la_pianista> Ktr101: Whereabouts? Clock-wise?
 08[23:01] -> *Ottava* hi, are you really deaf
[23:01] <Ktr101> BEGINNING
[23:01] <Ktr101> hence, "beginning"
[23:01] <Ottava> o.O
[23:02] <Ottava> I dont want to know how you would know that, pianisa
[23:02] <Ottava> pianista
[23:02] <Ottava> damn you, t!
 06[23:02] * la_pianista just knows things, of course
[23:03] <la_pianista> Ktr101: So you mean there really is a fuzziness? What about in the other recordings I've got?
 03[23:03] * Juliancolton (~Julian@wikimedia/Juliancolton) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:03] <la_pianista> o/ Juliancolton
 06[23:03] * la_pianista hugs tightly
[23:03] <Juliancolton> :OL
[23:03] <Ktr101> dunno, not looking yet
[23:03] <Ottava> Hiya JC
[23:03] <Juliancolton> :O
 06[23:03] * Juliancolton hides
[23:03] <Ktr101> but there is a general fuzz at the beginning
[23:03] <Ottava> Want to help me finish a hurricane article?
 08[23:03] * derp licks Juliancolton
[23:03] <Juliancolton> wow, that was an embarrassing way to enter
[23:04] <la_pianista> :(
 06[23:04] * la_pianista embarrassed Julia
[23:04] <Juliancolton> Ottava, is it really a hurricane, or just a poem with the word "storm" in it?
 06[23:04] * la_pianista feels unworthy
 08[23:04] * derp gives la_pianista a glass of freshly brewed cool lemonade with lots of lemons!!
[23:04] <Ottava> Juliancolton - Im banned, remember? :)
 06[23:04] * la_pianista thought of lemon party...
[23:04] <Juliancolton> still?
 06[23:04] * la_pianista should be punished
[23:04] <Ottava> apparently
[23:04] <Juliancolton> you've been banned for like, ever
[23:04] <Ottava> ArbCo had that I could start appealing afer 6 months and be out in a year
[23:04] <Ottava> but then the new ArbCom decided I was only allowed one appeal and indeffed me
 08[23:05] * derp punishes la_pianista
[23:05] <Juliancolton> you're indef banned now?
[23:05] <Ottava> they even said that the words "6 months" appears in the original ban when they clearly dont
 08[23:05] <derp> no soup for you.
[23:05] <Ottava> apparently
[23:05] <Juliancolton> weird
[23:05] <Ottava> even though the original ban said hat couldnt happen
[23:05] <Ottava> yah, it is weird
[23:05] <Ottava> but we knew the original ban was weid
[23:05] <Ottava> weird
[23:05] <Juliancolton> what did you do to get an indef? :P
 08[23:05] -> *Juliancolton* btw can i talk to you privately
[23:05] <Ottava> I appealed my ban
[23:05] <Ottava> You can read the appeal if you want
[23:05] <Juliancolton> how long ago?
[23:06] <Ottava>
 15[23:06] * Dragonfly6-7 ( Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds )
[23:06] <geniice> <Juliancolton not long enough
[23:06] <Ottava> back in July
[23:06] <Ottava> Apparently, my appeal didn't show that I "changed" or tried to offer appropriate measures to come back or whatever
[23:06] <la_pianista> Backfired, so to speak.
[23:06] <Ottava> even though the original decision says after 6 months we enter into a discussion
[23:06] <Ottava> the Arbirators didnt try to discuss it at all
 03[23:06] * Hprmedina (~Hprmedina@wikipedia/Hprmedina) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:06] <geniice> well that and any sane admin would block you on sight at this point
[23:06] <Ottava> they didnt ask me any questions
[23:06] <Ottava> never even talked to me
[23:06] <Juliancolton> geniice, thanks for calling me insane
 03[23:07] * TenPoundHammer ( has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:07] <Ottava> Totally ridiculous
 03[23:07] * Hprmedina (~Hprmedina@wikipedia/Hprmedina) has left #wikipedia-en
 15[23:07] * TenPoundHammer ( Quit (Changing host )
 03[23:07] * TenPoundHammer (~bobbypeac@unaffiliated/tenpoundhammer) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:08] <Juliancolton> TPH: what does "Somewhere With You" need to do to get an article?
[23:08] <TenPoundHammer> link?
[23:08] <Juliancolton>
[23:09] <TenPoundHammer> Juliancolton, one sec
[23:09] <Juliancolton> it seems pretty popular, but I haven't done the article thing in a while
[23:09] <Ktr101> wtf? when were u banned a year Ottava?!
[23:09] <TenPoundHammer> song's actually at 20, not 23, so that alone is worth a note
 15[23:09] * Tanvir (~tanvir@wikimedia/wikitanvir) Quit (Quit: Rebooting.. Be right back. )
[23:09] <TenPoundHammer> I would say just about anything that makes Top 20 on the country music charts is probably notable
[23:09] <Ktr101> wow, arbcom is a bit worrisome
[23:10] <Juliancolton> hmm, fair enough
[23:10] <la_pianista> Ktr101: You haven't heard? What cave have you been residing in? Even I, the semi-retired excuse of a Wikipedian, has heard of it.
[23:10] <Juliancolton> that album is very good, fwiw
[23:10] <la_pianista> ( <3 )
[23:10] <TenPoundHammer> Juliancolton, right now i'm reading the album reviews to see if they say anything about it
[23:10] <TenPoundHammer> Juliancolton, I wrote a review at a site that's a RS
[23:10] <Juliancolton> la_pianista, that's only because you like the drama
[23:10] <Juliancolton> TPH: link?
 06[23:10] * la_pianista dramatically denies
[23:10] <TenPoundHammer>
 08[23:11] * derp steals TenPoundHammer's otters.
[23:11] <Juliancolton> hmm
[23:11] <TenPoundHammer> Juliancolton, also,,20428111,00.html?xid=rss-music-Hemingway%27s+Whiskey
[23:11] <TenPoundHammer> ''Somewhere With You'' has a compellingly dark vibe Chesney should try out more often.
[23:11] <Ottava> Ktr101 - I was banned for a year with an expectation to come back after 6 months with probation
[23:12] <Ottava> instead, the new arbs didn't like me even more with many having blatant previous biases
[23:12] <Ktr101> i just read it
[23:12] <Ottava> and indeffed me under blatantly incorrect statements
[23:13] <Juliancolton> Seven Days is one of the best ones on that album imo
[23:13] <Brian_S> Juliancolton!
[23:13] <Juliancolton> Ottava, join wikitravel
[23:13] <Juliancolton> hey :)
 03[23:14] * Tanvir (~tanvir@wikimedia/wikitanvir) has joined #wikipedia-en
 08[23:14] <derp> Juliancolton, i am great in travel too
[23:14] <Ottava> Juliancolton - no thanks
 08[23:14] <derp> I know a lot of restaurants that are "weird"
[23:14] <TenPoundHammer> Juliancolton, go ahead and make the stub if you want
[23:15] <Juliancolton> alright, if not tonight, I'll get to it in the morning
[23:15] <Juliancolton> seems like a cool thing to start
 15[23:15] * Soxred93 (~Soxred93@wikipedia/Soxred93) Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep )
 08[23:15] <derp> tips and tricks of Montr茅al
[23:15] <TenPoundHammer> Juliancolton, too
 03[23:15] * AndrewN[Busy] is now known as AndrewN
[23:16] <Ktr101> DAMN! we can't poke the queen
[23:17] <la_pianista> I am poked.
[23:17] <la_pianista> ^^
 06[23:17] * la_pianista scampers off again
 08[23:18] * derp porks la_pianista.
 03[23:18] * TenPoundHammer (~bobbypeac@unaffiliated/tenpoundhammer) has left #wikipedia-en
 06[23:18] * la_pianista bacons derp
 08[23:18] <derp> FREE BACON FOR EVERYONE
 06[23:19] * Ktr101 tackles derp
[23:19] <Ktr101> herpaderp
[23:19] <Ottava> sigh
 03[23:19] * Soxred93 (~Soxred93@wikipedia/Soxred93) has joined #wikipedia-en
 08[23:20] * derp gives Ottava a canadian hug.
 08[23:21] <derp> nin i <3
Session Close: Wed Nov 10 23:21:07 2010